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Who Are My Investors?

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Re: Who Are My Investors?

#231

Post by dforrestwilson »

jannes wrote: post #220
dforrestwilson wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but this is a pathetic cop out. Just because the financial system is global, it does not mean you have to launder money for drug dealers or other people with shady morals. “The business needed the investment” is just code for you desiring an X-figure paycheck. The other corollary of this - should we really be surprised that an anti-globalist like Trump is in power with lax attitudes such as the above?

He specifically mentioned that he was adhering to AML rules. Maybe you think that the AML rules of his country should be different?

No. I think ethics =/= laws.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#232

Post by snowwrestler »

Applejinx wrote: post #224
roenxi wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously a functional democratic society will stomp a dictatorial one on pretty much any axis you care to think of. Having acknowledged that central point, we can't just say "dictators are bad". We can say "democracy is better", but there are instances where democracy doesn't work. For a realpolitic example, great powers have a long history of quietly corrupting and overthrowing democracies where their interests con…

That depends on how you reckon things. It sounds like an extremely unwarranted axiom routinely disproven by normal world events. I don't see the semi-functional United States outcompeting dictatorial slave labor economies. If your metric is how much value you can offer to huge multinational companies, it's plain that democratic societies are completely rejected and not even in the running. 'your investors' may very w…

This is so contrary to facts that I'm confused about where to even start rebutting.

I guess I would just encourage people to look at where multinational companies tend to be created, tend to be headquartered, and tend to get most of their revenue.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#233

Post by snowwrestler »

dcposch wrote: post #38

Pretty much every single comment so far is cynical. "No one really wants to know how the sausage is made", lots of money is tainted anyway, it's just PR fluff, etc etc. The classic HN Middlebrow Dismissal in full effect. Counterpoint: cynicism is too easy. Actually giving a shit is harder, it's uncomfortable, it involves compromise. Yes, if you refuse investment from any country that has ever violated a human right,…

Company leaders don't even necessarily have to decide for themselves. They can just discover the facts and communicate them clearly.

If it really doesn't matter where money comes from, they won't object to doing so.

If it really doesn't matter where money comes from, it won't affect their recruiting or marketing.

On the other hand, if company leaders resist the idea of being so transparent, well, maybe that it is a hint.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#234

Post by empath75 »

rococode wrote: post #112
dcposch wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've thought through many approaches here, from realpolitik pragmatism to ethical fundamentalism but none feel correct. So, vet your LPs case by case, discuss with your partners and use your moral judgement. If a North Korean or Syrian national wants to invest, you are legally required to refuse, in the US. Saudis? Legally allowed, but you have a moral imperative to refuse. A Chinese firm, or maybe Jared Kushner's…

> This idea that it's "virtually no way to avoid tainted money" is pretty cynical and self serving, IMO. Perhaps the real intention behind that idea is more like: "you can avoid tainted money but that money may go straight to your less scrupulous competitors". If you don't take the money, someone else will, and they may use it to beat you. To people whose primary focus is the growth of their own business, that could…

> To people whose primary focus is the growth of their own business, that could be a big cost for upholding their own sense of moral justice.

Not generally a fan of biblical quotes, but: "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#235

Post by nkrisc »

puranjay wrote: post #199
howlgram wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to mention that Gaddafi brought a lot of development to Libya and his death did nothing for his people. It's easy to say "oh he was a dictator and dictators are bad" but it's not so simple.

I've found that the west has a democracy bias. It assumes that democracy is intrinsic to people and it's only a matter of "liberating" them from tyranny. But as history is proof, there is nothing intrinsic about democracy. Democratic revolutions were hardly organic in much of the world. Most countries have known nothing but monarchy and/or dictatorships. To impose democracy on them would perhaps be as cruel as lettin…

Usually the country is "better off" as a whole on the backs of the few who will suffer tremendously in order to achieve that.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#236

Post by wp381640 »

mtrovo wrote: post #87

I keep thinking what Iraqi startups would think about accepting american VC money. The thing is, international politics is really hard. I'm pretty sure that it makes sense to track where your money is coming from but every single country is going to have a different set of "worst offenders", and you will see that the list carry a lot of political interest. I mean, we're looking at Erdogan [1] pointing the finger at t…

American VC money is distinct from American government money. The same cannot be said for Saudi, Qatar, UAE, Russia, the Central Asian kleptocracies, and to some extent - China, etc.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#237

Post by Draiken »

npunt wrote: post #202
tomasien wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points but "where do you draw the line? It's not clear" is fair observation but not a conclusion. You DO have to draw the line and just because where to draw it isn't clear doesn't absolve you (or anyone!) from drawing it.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

The problem I see is that there are literally zero incentives for a company to do that. A company is a "being" that only has one purpose: profits.

Even if your company does try to stick with a moral compass, because of how capitalism works, every other company will swallow you.

I'm not a finance expert, so I always had this question in my mind. Is there any way to avoid that? I can't think of a way to do that without changing the fundamental purpose of a company.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#238

Post by tomasien »

Draiken wrote: post #237
npunt wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

The problem I see is that there are literally zero incentives for a company to do that. A company is a "being" that only has one purpose: profits. Even if your company does try to stick with a moral compass, because of how capitalism works, every other company will swallow you. I'm not a finance expert, so I always had this question in my mind. Is there any way to avoid that? I can't think of a way to do that without…

First of all, the idea that companies exist only to create profits does not mean that companies need to seek profits above all else. PEOPLE run and form companies and get to make decisions about how they run and form companies based on their own decision criteria. There's nothing about starting a company that excludes you from society and moral thinking.

Second of all, even thinking of the profit motive, people want to do work they feel good about. If you must make a profit argument, it's important for companies to draw lines about what they will and won't do and stick to them, to earn and keep the trust of their stakeholders (especially employees).

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#239

Post by tomasien »

lordnacho wrote: post #217
npunt wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

> The reasonable answer to where you draw the line is: when something is no longer compatible with your value system. And if that's not clear, the issue is that you haven't yet spent enough time defining your values. That's the thing to talk about, research, consider, ask advice on, etc. People having a solid, well-tested personal value system is critical to society's function, because that informs how groups of peop…

Demanding a bright line definition and rejecting any argument where one isn't provided is useless and unhelpful.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#240

Post by addicted »

dcposch wrote: post #38

Pretty much every single comment so far is cynical. "No one really wants to know how the sausage is made", lots of money is tainted anyway, it's just PR fluff, etc etc. The classic HN Middlebrow Dismissal in full effect. Counterpoint: cynicism is too easy. Actually giving a shit is harder, it's uncomfortable, it involves compromise. Yes, if you refuse investment from any country that has ever violated a human right,…

We will never be perfect. There will be mistakes made, both intentionally and unintentionally.

However, cynicism which demands that we do nothing unless we have a perfect solution prevents us from making any progress and further makes it impossible to get any closer to the perfect state.

Simply asking about where the money you’re getting is coming from is in itself a huge first step that can be built on.

One small step at a time is pretty much the approach that developers and entrepreneurs advocate on HN for nearly every other problem. It should be the approach that we take towards resolving non technical challenges as well.

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