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Linux 4.19

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Re: Linux 4.19

#71
post #5

I've read a few things about the latest happenings with regards to Linus and the kernel, but I feel like I'm missing something here. Can someone summarize for me, or point me at a good summary? Edit: Who is Greg KH and why is this significant and what is the relationship between Greg KH and Linus (and the community)?

Greg KH is Greg Kroah-Hartman, Linus's second in command and I think the maintainer of the stable branch. He's currently filling in for Linus as the overall kernel maintainer.

He's good people. Gives a shit about kernel quality. Otherwise Linus wouldn't have trusted him with such a high post.

Re: Linux 4.19

#72
post #35
post #5

I've read a few things about the latest happenings with regards to Linus and the kernel, but I feel like I'm missing something here. Can someone summarize for me, or point me at a good summary? Edit: Who is Greg KH and why is this significant and what is the relationship between Greg KH and Linus (and the community)?

Regarding Linus, he spoke to the BBC and explained in his own words his position: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664640 This ZDNet article summarizes some of the points Linus made, if you want the short version: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-answers-5-quest...

Haha, I found a possible Freudian slip in the article: "Code of Conflict (CoC)". Yes, it says "Conflict", which is unintentionally true, as it indeed caused more conflict than not. [1]

[1] Archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20181011105751/https://www.bbc.c...

Re: Linux 4.19

#73
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The embrace and extend going on over in Redmond right now is threatening though, what better time to use your clout and power over a competitors org (that your a member of now) than when you have forked what depended on their software, extended it to work on your platform, and now want to take the wind out of their sails. Can you explain that a bit more? Are you saying Microsoft is using their clout to change the l…

I got down voted last time I mentioned this like it is some sort of conspiracy and not historical fact, but Microsoft literally used the phrase "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" [1] as a strategy to defeat competition. So anytime you hear of them embracing something you would do well to be skeptical of their motives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

Sure, but that was two CEOs ago, and they were the dominant market player in all categories at the time. They're a different company now.

Re: Linux 4.19

#74
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but organisations and structures defining themselves by those words very rarely practice what they preach Is there some sort of evidence for this? >A meritocracy would never allow harassment of people on the basis of things that have nothing to do with their code - it would take a hard stance against sexism and harassment, it would attempt to communicate in a way that doesn’t drive people away from the project in a…

> Is there some sort of evidence for this? What type of evidence would change your mind? > The new CoC is founded on an ideology that explicitly rejects it. The GPL is also founded on an ideology that rejects proprietary software, yet Linux is used by plenty of companies who develop such software. "Foundations" are just an origin story. What part of the actual text of the CoC prevents a meritocracy? > If that were th…

> Reusing the previous example, the purpose of the GPL was to drive out proprietary software; yet the people using it in Linux do not yield it that way.

That was an outcome that was hoped for, not a purpose. The purpose is pretty explicit in the preamble paragraphs [0] - to promote a certain style of freedom. As a body, the Free Software community wouldn't deny that if creating non-free software is legal, then free software can be used to achieve that goal. They have a more fundamental objection to the government creating and then enforcing the concept of copyright.

The kernel community has been very aggressive about securing that freedom for themselves, particularly in arenas such as allowing non-free drivers into the kernel. They don't take a politically activist stance of lobbying to change the law, but they don't seem to deal with code that they can't legally modify themselves.

The kernel community may well be cherry-picking from the GNU strategy, but the GPL is being used as intended - to promote and secure freedom for users.

> What part of the actual text of the CoC prevents a meritocracy?

The part where it sets out that the Technical Advisory Board (aka the TAB) will presumably remove people form the community who are in breach of the code of conduct, without language that exempts people who have a long history of positive technical contribution.

Everything involves tradeoffs. Being a meritocracy means that individuals of technical merit are given leeway to fumble, or even potentially abuse, the status of their position.

Good example is Hans Reiser - the case was rendered moot by him being imprisoned, but a meritocracy says "the code is good, let him keep contributing" and a non-meritocractic community would presumably say "we don't want to associate with murderers".

Obviously nobody wants the to encourage bad behavior, but the question being asked is /how much/ slack do great technical contributors get if they happen to be, say, autistic and antisocial. Historically, the answer has been lots of slack. In future, the answer looks like it will be corporate-acceptable-behavior, which is a higher standard. Presumably if there is a group who thinks this change is needed it will be followed by a purge of the community where marginal maintainers are pushed out.

[0] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

Re: Linux 4.19

#75
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding Linus, he spoke to the BBC and explained in his own words his position: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664640 This ZDNet article summarizes some of the points Linus made, if you want the short version: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-answers-5-quest...

Haha, I found a possible Freudian slip in the article: "Code of Conflict (CoC)". Yes, it says "Conflict", which is unintentionally true, as it indeed caused more conflict than not. [1] [1] Archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20181011105751/https://www.bbc.c...

The Code of Conflict is a real thing, predating the current mess

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/2015/03/on-the-linux-ke...

Re: Linux 4.19

#76
post #65
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. I agree that any such code of conduct should be limited to communications involving the project directly, and be the minimal set of rules necessary to ensure civility.

"Communications involving the project directly" is a good goal, but is ambiguous when e.g. one developer is belittling another in a semi-related forum like their personal Twitter account where they regularly have technical conversations, their HN account, etc. If (hypothetically) Linus were to be nice and polite on LKML, and reply to tweets about bugs saying "Yes, that's a bug, the developer should be retroactively a…

Your example isn’t that ambiguous, that’s a public communication directly about the project. That should be covered by the CoC.

However unrelated statements, even very politically incorrect ones, should be outside it’s remit. If for example someone was a virulent racist on twitter. That’s arguably a bad thing, but those statements are unrelated to the project and should have no bearing on contributions to it.

(Now that’s going to be an unpopular sentiment. Downvotes ahead.)

Re: Linux 4.19

#77
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a worry, rather than simply being crass, when the author of the CoC herself has said that it is indeed a political document[1]? [1] https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1041465346656530432

The CoC being a political document is expected, it is laying the boundaries that define acceptable behavior, an inherently political task. On that ssamw tangent, the GPL series of license is inherently political. I personally like the political ideology espoused, but some do not despite how other licenses leave these developers with many users and proprietary forks, buf no added code, docs or community.

This old GPL hoary chestnut comes up again and again. The GPL is not a political document. It is an economic document that aims to give end users the right to modify their equipment.

Virtually any one who owns a fully mechanical device has access to its workings and with the necessary tools and knowledge (which can be hired or bought) can make changes and improvements to the device. If you own an old Mercedes, Ford, or (place your favourite car here), or a John Deere or Massey Ferguson tractor before critical functions become software controlled, you can make any modifications you want and not only that anyone you sell the device to also gains the benefits of those modifications, make any changes and can pass them on the next user.

Is that a political benefit or an economic benefit?

Try doing that with your Tesla, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA/fea..., or your new John Deere.

The GPL extends this facility to computer programs. How does this become a political thing? It only becomes political when there is the desire to use the legislative and judicial systems to subvert end users ability to enjoy, enhance and repair the products they have bought.

Re: Linux 4.19

#78
post #9

Linus may have been sincere in his writing, people saw him as this verbally abusive boogeyman who would tear people apart, which led him to become that type of person more and more. The embrace and extend going on over in Redmond right now is threatening though, what better time to use your clout and power over a competitors org (that your a member of now) than when you have forked what depended on their software, ex…

Linus has a reputation to protect. As he said in that BBC writeup, the last thing he wants is to be associated with that horrible scum on the internet. Personally and professionally, he wants to distance himself from the alt-right.

Among the most vocal activists for change in the OSS community, "alt-right" means anyone who does not accept intersectional feminism as a fundamental tenet of their worldview, and given their penchant for "call-out culture" they won't hesitate to put you on blast across Twitter and wherever else.

Re: Linux 4.19

#79

It is very disturbing for me to see Greg KH being at the top and deciding what goes into Linux. There is history of agenda that doesn't align best with kernel user interests. Can't forget d-bus events very related to this person. I did switch to FreeBSD couple of years ago but I love linux and it is not easiest to observe all the latest events.

Greg KH already decides what goes into the "stable" Linux series (4.y.z, for instance 4.18.15), which is what most people actually use. Besides, he assumed after the 4.19 merge window, and he's handed the 4.20 merge window back to Linus; it's in the merge window that new features come in (after the merge window closes it's mostly only bugfixes), so it's still Linus who gets to decide.
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