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Linux 4.19

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Re: Linux 4.19

#41
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your well-formulated contribution to the discussion.

Ad hominem?

> I'm actually not sure about what you are trying to communicate.

I'm communicating the names of the fallacies I believe that you have committed.

Tongue firmly half in cheek.

Re: Linux 4.19

#42
post #29

I’m seeing a lot of people stating that they’re worried about this code of conduct. Since I’ve not read it or any commentary about it, can someone tell me why it’s so worrying? Is there a sincere fear that Linux will be damaged as a result? If so, how?

From reading peoples' complaints, they're worried that the CoC can/will be used to beat "problematic" developers into submission and reduce their ability to speak and discuss freely.

I think it's completely overblown. If a person's ability to discuss software development requires them to belittle others for their sexuality or political observation or gender or anything else not related to software development, then they should feel unwelcome and they should make a hasty exit from the community.

The CoC makes room for everyone except serial harassers. If a person can't work on professional terms as part of a larger development community, they should go somewhere else and probably work on their own instead.

Re: Linux 4.19

#43
post #29

I’m seeing a lot of people stating that they’re worried about this code of conduct. Since I’ve not read it or any commentary about it, can someone tell me why it’s so worrying? Is there a sincere fear that Linux will be damaged as a result? If so, how?

I believe the biggest worry is that the CoC is loosely worded, but gives lots of power for removing people from the community that don't abide by the too-loose rules.

This leads people to fear that contributors, some of them long-term, may be removed because of things like political views, even if they don't come up in a mailing list discussion, or if they were said by the person 30 years ago on Usenet.

A lot of other people feel it wrongly shifts the focus from code-quality to political correctness and feelings, which are far harder to measure objectively. See paragraph 1.

Re: Linux 4.19

#44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Either that, or some people tend to see "vegetarianism" and "dictatorship/genocide" as orthogonal, while seeing "low-life scum on the internet" and "complaining about too much political correctness" as not orthogonal?

Should the separation not be between ``low-life scum on the internet'' (the far right) and ``not being explicitly politically correct'' (being apolitical)? ``We need more political correctness'' (the far left) is on the reflected axis of ``complaining about too much political correctness'' (the far right).

Re: Linux 4.19

#45
I think all this handwringing over the CoC would have more weight for me if:

a) It came from major Linux contributors.

b) It didn't assume a conspiracy to not only oust Linus but also get him to dance to their tune.

Re: Linux 4.19

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad hominem?

> I'm actually not sure about what you are trying to communicate. I'm communicating the names of the fallacies I believe that you have committed. Tongue firmly half in cheek.

So basically, you are trolling. Thank you for being candid.

Re: Linux 4.19

#47
post #17
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[1] gives more context about this. By being "non political" you are implicitly defending the status quo. [1]: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1041501017651793922

And instead one should... Attack the ``status quo''? This line of reasoning is inherently partisan and extremely political as well as divisive. Believing that meritocracy is bad is a fringe belief, and in this case there really is nothing that suggests that adhering to the ``status quo'' is the non-insane alternative. Edit: I'd also like to highlight that this is a classic version of the ``you're either with us, or a…

It’s really not a fringe belief outside of your circles - “meritocracy” is one of those things that sounds like a good idea, like “communism”, but organisations and structures defining themselves by those words very rarely practice what they preach. A meritocracy would never allow harassment of people on the basis of things that have nothing to do with their code - it would take a hard stance against sexism and harassment, it would attempt to communicate in a way that doesn’t drive people away from the project in a biased manner, since those and many other behaviours drive away people who may have merit. If anything, a well-designed code of conduct can create something closer to a real meritocracy, as you don’t drive away contributors on anything but the merit of their contributions.

Re: Linux 4.19

#48
post #43
post #29

I’m seeing a lot of people stating that they’re worried about this code of conduct. Since I’ve not read it or any commentary about it, can someone tell me why it’s so worrying? Is there a sincere fear that Linux will be damaged as a result? If so, how?

I believe the biggest worry is that the CoC is loosely worded, but gives lots of power for removing people from the community that don't abide by the too-loose rules. This leads people to fear that contributors, some of them long-term, may be removed because of things like political views, even if they don't come up in a mailing list discussion, or if they were said by the person 30 years ago on Usenet. A lot of othe…

I see. I agree that any such code of conduct should be limited to communications involving the project directly, and be the minimal set of rules necessary to ensure civility.

Re: Linux 4.19

#49
post #29

I’m seeing a lot of people stating that they’re worried about this code of conduct. Since I’ve not read it or any commentary about it, can someone tell me why it’s so worrying? Is there a sincere fear that Linux will be damaged as a result? If so, how?

Someone has stated their worries on the LKML: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/19/234

Re: Linux 4.19

#50
post #29

I’m seeing a lot of people stating that they’re worried about this code of conduct. Since I’ve not read it or any commentary about it, can someone tell me why it’s so worrying? Is there a sincere fear that Linux will be damaged as a result? If so, how?

Here is a good starting point to research the critique of this document: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004#note-6 . Its point is particularly apt:

> Given a choice between only two extremes, I'd far rather have Linus Torvalds telling me I'm an idiot and my code is shit, then exist in an offense taking culture where various forms of criticism are re-branded as "harassment."

However, the Linux copy has cut one of the more malicious paragraphs: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

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