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Who Are My Investors?

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Re: Who Are My Investors?

#211

Post by lordnacho »

dforrestwilson wrote: post #159
lordnacho wrote: post #110

I've come across this problem a few times when running a hedge fund. To what degree does one care where the money came from, aside from following AML rules? I get the feeling you only write articles like that if you have more people wanting to invest than you have capacity for. - A friend called, asking for a recommendation for a job he was applying for. And advice about whether it was worth taking. Turned out, it wa…

I’m sorry but this is a pathetic cop out. Just because the financial system is global, it does not mean you have to launder money for drug dealers or other people with shady morals. “The business needed the investment” is just code for you desiring an X-figure paycheck. The other corollary of this - should we really be surprised that an anti-globalist like Trump is in power with lax attitudes such as the above?

In your rush to condemnation, you've missed that I specifically mentioned that we followed anti money-laundering laws. Also none of the people we worked with had been convicted for drug dealing.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#213

Post by altonzheng »

npunt wrote: post #202
tomasien wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points but "where do you draw the line? It's not clear" is fair observation but not a conclusion. You DO have to draw the line and just because where to draw it isn't clear doesn't absolve you (or anyone!) from drawing it.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

Well said. I’ve just started really thinking about this. Although I would venture that people naturally develop value systems as they get older, whatever field they are in. It’s just that many of our existing institutions set you up to create values based on self interest and wealth. I think it’s unfortunate. But then again, can I really say my values are superior?

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#214

Post by lordnacho »

rpcastagna wrote: post #151
lordnacho wrote: post #110

I've come across this problem a few times when running a hedge fund. To what degree does one care where the money came from, aside from following AML rules? I get the feeling you only write articles like that if you have more people wanting to invest than you have capacity for. - A friend called, asking for a recommendation for a job he was applying for. And advice about whether it was worth taking. Turned out, it wa…

It's weird to me you would treat this state of affairs as a static and universally-holding position. I think it's obvious (with several current examples coming to mind) that investors and business partners can be branded as "toxic" in a way that overwhelmingly devalues any money they could actually offer. In the same way the police will take a stolen watch from you after you buy it -- without much recourse on your pa…

> It's weird to me you would treat this state of affairs as a static and universally-holding position.

People are going to tend to do what everyone else does. If we were to start hearing that everyone in the fund community had decided not to take money from XYZ kind of investor, we'd probably have done the same. And the arguments would be no different. You'd decide what to do, and then all the reasons that weren't enough before would suddenly be damning and certainly enough.

As for moral arguments, I'm surprised (well not really) that people think it's so simple. Anyone who's read a bit of philosophy has come across moral dilemmas that are not clear. I mean fgs there's a guy up the thread who thinks Gaddafi is defensible, and then there are people who think a guy who hires heavies is untouchable.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#215

Post by timavr »

jypepin wrote: post #196

I've never been in the game, so it's hard for me to judge, and too easy to say "yeah! Always do the right/perfect thing". I still appreciate this kind of comments, especially is they help some people, sometimes make a better decision. But I think it's not always as straight forward as what the article is making it sound. A few following questions - Pension funds? How proud should they be about managing their money? I…

The whole premise of good/bad money is misleading.

There is legal/illegal, which is super clear.

Good/Bad is really up to individual and company to decide. But if someone took Saudi money which US government takes every week during Bill Auction, then they shouldn’t be judged worse then the government itself.

And the US uses this money to pay teachers and firefighters which finishes in pension funds, which at this point is clean money, according to Fred.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#216

Post by samsonradu »

ed_balls wrote: post #125
samsonradu wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure one can know. From all angles it looks like a very stupid and badly executed assasination plot. There are a lot more discrete ways to kill someone than flying 15 people/agents over on a private plane. Time will tell hopefully.

Unless you want to send a message, not just kill someone. Similar to Skripal.

Quite an expensive message to send, this will likely burn a lot of business/investment bridges.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#217

Post by lordnacho »

npunt wrote: post #202
tomasien wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points but "where do you draw the line? It's not clear" is fair observation but not a conclusion. You DO have to draw the line and just because where to draw it isn't clear doesn't absolve you (or anyone!) from drawing it.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

> The reasonable answer to where you draw the line is: when something is no longer compatible with your value system. And if that's not clear, the issue is that you haven't yet spent enough time defining your values. That's the thing to talk about, research, consider, ask advice on, etc. People having a solid, well-tested personal value system is critical to society's function, because that informs how groups of people like companies then operate, and so forth on up.

This sounds nice, but nobody has a clearly defined value system. Can you tell us what yours is?

Nobody can do that. At most people can write do is essays about why they decided one thing or another. If you ask them enough questions, you find contradictions.

I'm not trivializing what you're saying, either. I think you're onto a real human desire for consistency.

But if you read a bit about how people have thought about moral decisions, you find it's an endless rabbit hole. The history of moral thought doesn't have any conclusions. It's not like we can pick utilitarians and say "yep, that's the right one", because there are plenty of reasonable objections to any principle.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#218

Post by puranjay »

admax88q wrote: post #205
puranjay wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that the west has a democracy bias. It assumes that democracy is intrinsic to people and it's only a matter of "liberating" them from tyranny. But as history is proof, there is nothing intrinsic about democracy. Democratic revolutions were hardly organic in much of the world. Most countries have known nothing but monarchy and/or dictatorships. To impose democracy on them would perhaps be as cruel as lettin…

> I'd say that people should be allowed to manage their own affairs. > If a country is better off with a dictator, then so be it. Those do not mesh. Democracy _is_ allowing people to manage their own affairs.

Not when that democracy is imposed by an external force. There is nothing organic about, say, a US-sponsored democracy in Afghanistan or Iraq

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#219

Post by Ntrails »

lordnacho wrote: post #217
npunt wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah exactly - this isn't a minor inconvenience, it's a fundamental part of being in society. I appreciate OP's point about lack of clarity, because yes, the capitalist game has nothing to say about anything except following whatever you can get away with. But that narrow game is being played in a much broader context of society that exists because of a broader social contract and set of values which keeps everything…

> The reasonable answer to where you draw the line is: when something is no longer compatible with your value system. And if that's not clear, the issue is that you haven't yet spent enough time defining your values. That's the thing to talk about, research, consider, ask advice on, etc. People having a solid, well-tested personal value system is critical to society's function, because that informs how groups of peop…

> This sounds nice, but nobody has a clearly defined value system. Can you tell us what yours is?

Absolutes are generally horrific but without them it's impossible to codify any value system. With them you'll be driven to the edge of the line and asked how sure you are about it.

"Abortion is always wrong"

"what if doctors say the foetus has a 0% chance of being born alive and the mother has a 100% chance of dying without"

"Well, ok, maybe in that case"

"Ok, so the foetus is now 1% to survive and live for at most a year, and the mother 99% probability of death"

"Murder, abortion always wrong"

etc

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#220

Post by jannes »

dforrestwilson wrote: post #159
lordnacho wrote: post #110

I've come across this problem a few times when running a hedge fund. To what degree does one care where the money came from, aside from following AML rules? I get the feeling you only write articles like that if you have more people wanting to invest than you have capacity for. - A friend called, asking for a recommendation for a job he was applying for. And advice about whether it was worth taking. Turned out, it wa…

I’m sorry but this is a pathetic cop out. Just because the financial system is global, it does not mean you have to launder money for drug dealers or other people with shady morals. “The business needed the investment” is just code for you desiring an X-figure paycheck. The other corollary of this - should we really be surprised that an anti-globalist like Trump is in power with lax attitudes such as the above?

He specifically mentioned that he was adhering to AML rules. Maybe you think that the AML rules of his country should be different?
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