Live data from Hacker News

Who Are My Investors?

avc.com

101–110 of 264 posts

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#101
Why is it assumed that this morally undesirable money would take the form of an LP directly signed on with one's VC? Can't this money instead invest itself with an existing LP that's seemingly on the up and up?

For example, say Goldman is an LP on one of your VC's funds from which your company receives money from. Setting aside how morally dubious they are on the face of it, they're otherwise a reputable and respected American company.[0]

However, where's their money coming from? On a larger scale Goldman absolutely does business with the Saudis and has forever. On a smaller scale, I'm sure there's any number of vehicles or ways to otherwise structure the money going into a particular investment such that it'd be difficult for the eventual recipient (i.e. the startup) to know exactly where it's coming from, let alone the VC.

[0] https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/goldman-quietly... /s

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#102
post #75

I hate it when, just because something becomes a big media story (I.e. Saudi Arabia killing a journalist) everyone comes out of the woodwork “oh dear! How can we not do business with these people?” When in fact, it’s been going on for decades and nobody gave a shit... until now, when giving a shit can firm up your virtue signaling.

So you are suggesting people just keep doing business with them... or are you suggesting people don't try to make other people do that? Because you can call it "virtual signaling" or however you want but both are still pretty bad options.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#103
post #9

"“Bad actors” doesn’t simply mean money from rulers in the gulf who turn out to be cold blooded killers." - like we all did not know that before the referenced event?

So people can't correct their views at any important news? They should have known better before and can't no longer correct their views, its that what you are saying?

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#104

Practically speaking, what are we supposed to do here? Slack raised 250m from Softbank which we know is driven be Saudi investment. Should we stop using Slack? Honestly, I doubt anyone would do that despite all this "outrage". I put it in quotes because all these principles are great to talk about but people won't do even a small thing like leaving Slack in their companies.

Don’t interpret the words given as a common prescription. Most of us don’t have enough to make a global impact—only a local change. Wait and see if Masayoshi Son, or SoftBank, will comment on the situation; see if Stewart Butterfield, or Slack, will. If neither of them say anything, then that’s when you should decide to continue using Slack or drop it; but don’t pretend you were oblivious.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#105
post #38

Pretty much every single comment so far is cynical. "No one really wants to know how the sausage is made", lots of money is tainted anyway, it's just PR fluff, etc etc. The classic HN Middlebrow Dismissal in full effect. Counterpoint: cynicism is too easy. Actually giving a shit is harder, it's uncomfortable, it involves compromise. Yes, if you refuse investment from any country that has ever violated a human right,…

> Pretty much every single comment so far is cynical. "No one really wants to know how the sausage is made", lots of money is tainted anyway, it's just PR fluff, etc etc.

It seems like a deeper problem than that, which is that money is fungible. It's the same thing as saying we shouldn't buy Saudi oil. If the only result is that you buy some other oil and the people who would have bought that oil buy the Saudi oil, nothing meaningful has changed.

To get a meaningful result you need one of two things. One is solidarity (i.e. market power), but you never have that in a diffuse competitive market. The other is to do something that isn't fungible. For example, if you actually use less oil (buy an electric car and solar panels, or support nuclear etc.), it makes a proportional difference even at the individual level, because then it isn't a matter of everyone having to act together to accomplish anything, it's a matter of each person doing their share adding up. Then the cost to them is in proportion to how many people act rather than the cost being effectively zero unless you reach a critical mass you can't achieve.

But there isn't any obvious equivalent to that for venture capital. For oil, basically all of the foreign exporters are antagonistic, and burning oil itself is harmful regardless of the source, so everything lines up for that working as a mechanism of retaliation. But if solar/wind/hydro/nuclear/etc. are the alternatives to oil, what is the alternative to money supposed to be?

To get anywhere on that front you need market power, which essentially means something like government sanctions. But we don't do that because we still need their oil. So it seems like we're right back to stop burning oil.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#106
post #68
post #61

I love that Wilson gives examples of ethical LPs like pension funds and educational endowments. Much of the criticism here is “well if you refuse to take tainted money then the world economy will grind to a halt.” But think of it... if the business community stopped taking tainted money, holding everyone to a high standard, that would be a powerful force to curb human rights abuses in the world. We do have ethical al…

Its a zero sum game. You might reject the investment but others wont

It’s not a zero sum game — just because a company makes an unethical decision to gain a competitive advantage doesn’t mean you have to. And it doesn’t mean you can prosper by acting ethical either.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#107
I really like this. If we all started factoring moral issues into our decisions, the world would start becoming a better place.

Unfortunately, people love to justify doing nothing. Approaches like whataboutism, relativism, and convincing yourself that your decision doesn't matter because X/Y/Z are rampant — as witnessed by comments under this post.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#108

I find the way he describes "gulf interests" to be almost racist. Is money from Kuwait the same as money from Saudi Arabia? Obviously not. [Corrected syria to saudi Arabia]

It is shorthand for UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi - countries that are just a few of the handful remaining autocratic theocracies in the world with terrible human rights records

Those countries are wildly different in terms of human rights violations.

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#109

At any business effort beyond hyper local markets, there is virtually no way to avoid tainted money or unethical markets. You're going to have to compromise somewhere. The question is, how and where do you draw the line? At some point as a founder/fundraiser, you will cross paths with finance or supply chains that support exploitation, coercion, violence or illegality. The most successful business people don't seem t…

>>You're going to have to compromise somewhere. The question is, how and where do you draw the line? I think in this particular instance, the line is quite clear. I mean, “does not cut people to pieces alive with a hand saw in their own embassy” is a rather easy one to not compromise on.

What would be the time frame you care about I would not be so sure that even most western governments did not cross a similar line in one form or the other. It certainly the case that US have being propping up or even installing regimes that were involved in mass atrocities. So as much as we like to feel like we are above this type of thing the reality is that we are directly or indirectly responsible for much worst atrocities. We have being propping up Saudi Royal family for how many decades now?

Re: Who Are My Investors?

#110
I've come across this problem a few times when running a hedge fund. To what degree does one care where the money came from, aside from following AML rules? I get the feeling you only write articles like that if you have more people wanting to invest than you have capacity for.

- A friend called, asking for a recommendation for a job he was applying for. And advice about whether it was worth taking. Turned out, it was the firm that managed Libya's (ie Gaddafi's) wealth. They were making a big push at the time and needed a software developer. Was I going to tell him not to take the job? How complicit are you if you write some exchange connectors for a dictator? He ended up taking it, and they ended up in the news.

- A gulf state sovereign fund called. We didn't even flinch to take it. I think we just assumed they had a lot of oil money and didn't think any further about it. If you read the news, there's some not nice things about the place. Treating manual laborers badly, lack of proper rule of law, that sort of thing. Took the money, didn't think about it much. Not sure I would act differently now, to be honest. Basically the business needed the investment, and there wasn't anything specific and horrible to tell us not to.

- And where do you draw the line? What if a benevolent, enlightened, prosperous but essentially a dictatorship state from the equator wants to invest? And they could well claim to be a democracy. You'd be in endless discussions about which investors to take, which presumably 99% of your competitors would not have a problem with.

- The family office of a guy who'd been in jail called. He was known to have made his money in a seedy way, and tended to have large guys standing around guarding him. I doubt if he actually was a gangster, just seemed to like having a certain tough-guy air about him. Were we going to turn him down? Again, business requirements prevailed. Basically, if it's legal to take his money, most people will do so.

If someone does something horrible like with this journalist, and you are an organisation that is large enough to have a PR footprint, you might care. If you're just a small fish, you are always going to have huge pressure to take the cash. I know what my partners would have done if I'd put up any resistance in these cases; they'd have just ground me down with endless rationalizations, and we'd have ended up doing exactly the same. People always find reasons to do what they have decided to do, and not in that order.

Post reply on HN