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Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. And as a person of color, I'll tell you that laws preventing discrimination offered me and my family zero protections (specifically with respect to restaurants) in the post CRA-III era.

Edit: misunderstood

Sorry that was unclear. I should have written "it's not a different argument".

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#92
post #17

Why should anyone care what Harvard does? Isn’t it a private university, and shouldn’t they be able to choose who they want? The whole thing strikes me as presumptuous and entitled.

Because employers love credentialism and can discriminate based on college. Your ability to break into the highest levels of many fields depends on that Harvard degree vs a public or 2nd tier private school.

What’s stopping you from making a groundbreaking company of your own and becoming an employer yourself? Employers can hire who they want and if Harvard’s selection of candidates does not meet their standards, you can be sure that employers are going to stop hiring from Harvard.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#93
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CRA-III?

I would assume that is Title III of the Civil Rights Act which covers the obligation of the Attorney General to instigate civil suites to enforce the CRA on behalf of complainants who do not have the means to pursue a civil suite on their own.

Sorry for the ambiguity. It's the third civil rights act (1964) after 57 and 60. I and II dominantly were about racism in voting, but III has substantial portions that were about regulating private behavior in addition to those segments about the state sponsored racism.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#94
post #15

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…

That's the actual issue here. Harvard receives around $600 million in federal funds a year [1].

1. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2015/1/22/federal-funding...

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#95
post #17

Why should anyone care what Harvard does? Isn’t it a private university, and shouldn’t they be able to choose who they want? The whole thing strikes me as presumptuous and entitled.

A private university that receives $600 million a year in federal funds.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#96
one thing that always puzzles me about this topic is that even though everyone knows Harvard's admissions process is unfair/phony/rigged many people still want desperately to be accepted there in order to send the right signal

so what signal could possibly be getting sent if we already know the game is unfair/phony/rigged?

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#97
post #17

Why should anyone care what Harvard does? Isn’t it a private university, and shouldn’t they be able to choose who they want? The whole thing strikes me as presumptuous and entitled.

A private university that receives $600 million a year in federal funds.

This is a good counterpoint, but they could probably survive without it. I don’t agree with discrimination and don’t think it’s right, but I do feel like Harvard should do what it wants if it didn’t take a single dollar of public funds.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#99

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

> Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference.

Sounds like a classic example of double effect[1] to me: Harvard intends a good end (alleviating historical injustices), applies a means that is not in-itself objectionable (AA), and does not intend the bad end (that some otherwise-qualified students have a reduced chance of getting in).

That's a moral argument and not a legal one, but my intuition is that the intent of their admissions program and its necessary connection to the means (AA) will play a central role in their defense. Fisher II v. UT[2] was decided on similar grounds.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_v._University_of_Texas_...

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goodhart's Law: “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” SATs will quickly become one of the poorest indicators for success.

Except that SATs measure something real (intelligence), so unless outright cheating and bribery are taking place, it will continue to be a good measure.

In my experience, SATs measure nothing - only how well you can take the SAT, after taking a prep course my score went up like 200 points. One of my friends got a perfect score on the ACT after doing alright on the SAT. Some colleges are no longer taking it into account because everyone knows how BS it is.

EDIT: and to make it worse the college board charges exorbitant prices for everything involved in the process - it’s ridiculous

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