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Japan's Hometown Tax

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Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#191

Post by barry-cotter »

narag wrote: post #111
delinka wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Souther Italians their own race?

I thought that the current consensus was that races don't really exist. "Modern" racism can be more subtle than that, more about xenophobia or just classism.

Depends whether you’re talking about the consensus among critical race theorists or population geneticists.

The latter have no problem with dividing different people into groups based on ancestry based on what continent their ancestor came from though the word race is passé.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestry-informative_marker

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#192

Post by simonebrunozzi »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #14
pgz wrote: post #2

I always found this system very interesting, since the citizen can decide how some of their tax money is spent (besides voting). On the other hand I have always lived in Northern Italy, and around half of my taxes go to the poorer regions of Italy, mostly to be squandered by corruption, clientelism, and organized crime.

> On the other hand I have always lived in Northern Italy, and around half of my taxes go to the poorer regions of Italy, mostly to be squandered by corruption, clientelism, and organized crime. Heh, funny that richer parts of the EU say this about Italy itself.

(disclaimer: I'm Italian)

Unfortunately that's blatantly false. Italy paid contributions to the EU in vast excess of contributions that were taken by Italians. Didn't find historical figures, but this is the most recent [0], and by memory I know that the same unbalance has been going on for a long time:

- Total EU spending in Italy: € 11.592 billion - Total Italian contribution to the EU budget: € 13.940 billion"

If your goal was instead to make a funny joke, you succeeded at being offensive to me (as an Italian).

In all seriousness, your comment feels to me as equivalent to a guy writing about how women waste money more than they earn (I would be the woman in this case).

[0]: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-c...

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#193

Post by Camillo »

coldtea wrote: post #150
delinka wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Souther Italians their own race?

Somewhat, since they include ancient Greek and old-time islamic ancestry (as far as I know). According to Wikipedia: "There is a noticeable genetic difference between Sardinians, Northern Italians and Southern Italians. People from the North seem to be close to the French population, while those from the South overlap with Balkan and other southern European populations". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_…

> since they include ancient Greek and old-time islamic ancestry (as far as I know)

AFAIK most of the genetic variation in Italy dates back from ancient times. Everyone thinks "of course, it was the Islamic invasions in Sicily and the Germanic invasions in the North", but the genetic impact of those was surprisingly small. The variation was there before.

The Greek colonization of southern Italy is the one historical migration that _did_ have significant impact, according to the article.

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#194

Post by gknoy »

simias wrote: post #28
jessaustin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inevitable given the political structure. Since votes are distributed by area and population rather than by wealth, wealthier political divisions will necessarily bribe poorer ones into political compromises that are closer to the wealthier divisions' preferences than they would have been without bribery. The only way to prevent that would be for the overall polity to have much lower taxes and thus much less mon…

"Bribe" is way too loaded, you could also call it social justice and redistribution, a way to give poorer areas better chances to improve their life. Saying that redistribution is bribery is about the same level of discourse as saying that taxes are theft and prison kidnapping.

> Saying that redistribution is bribery is about the same level of discourse as saying that taxes are theft and prison kidnapping

I have friends who say literally that (taxes are theft). How does one argue against that? I have a hard time finding a way that it's technically wrong. I mean, taxation is literally the state taking your money (whether you want it or not, voted against it or not, etc).

I can't help but feel that there's some difference, but I can't find what it is. Do you have suggestions on readings that would inform me better on the issue?

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#195

Post by gph »

Balgair wrote: post #166

I LOVE this idea! Here in the US, it could really help out rural communities. The best part is that it is 'free' to everyone; you've already paid the taxes. Small communities could, and do, organize festivals based on local culture: Trout fishing in the summer, Ice festivals in the winter, Duck races in the spring, etc. They get people interested in some aspect of the community, be it a festival, music, the climate,…

Did you read the entire article? It's not really 'free to everyone', it's not like it's magic money. It's more like a transfer of tax revenue from Tokyo to rural communities, with a bit of a kickback to the tax payers.

And while your vision sounds nice, the end of the article made it sound more like it's become a race to the bottom with most rural towns offering the maximum amount allowed in gift vouchers which people resell for cash.

So it's mostly just a convoluted tax distribution/credit system in a lot of ways. And as much as it would be nice to have something like what you wrote, it would be near impossible to set out rules such that it didn't become another cynical race to maximize profits by attracting 'donors'. Even if you outlawed gift cards, there's always going to be some good/commodity a community can offer that will hold a liquidable cash value.

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#196

Post by gph »

ai_ia wrote: post #173
pgz wrote: post #2

I always found this system very interesting, since the citizen can decide how some of their tax money is spent (besides voting). On the other hand I have always lived in Northern Italy, and around half of my taxes go to the poorer regions of Italy, mostly to be squandered by corruption, clientelism, and organized crime.

On a side note, is there any system that exists where citizen can decide to a greater autonomy how there tax money is spent?

Libertarianism. I hear they are testing it out in Oregon.

/s

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#197

Post by an4rchy »

Super interesting policy!

I was thinking about why Tokyo doesn't do the same and reciprocate, thereby competing with the smaller towns.

I do realize that Tokyo/(any other big city) wouldn't want to do this till the number of people opting in hits a threshold within their city but maybe that is the equilibrium point. Does anyone have any insight into that?

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#198

Post by monetus »

karmelapple wrote: post #175
dorfsmay wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people educated with public funds but without kids will allocate 0$ to education, then complain that youths these days just hang in the street doing no good, and allocate more of their tax towards policing?

We could set minimum amounts to go to schools so that even if every single person in the country allocated $0 of their discretionary fund to public education, the public education system would still have the funds needed. And the default, if someone doesn't choose any categories, would go to some proportion that Congress would decide. However, allowing even a "small" portion - which could still be billions of dollars…

Quakers have been trying to implement a form of this on religious grounds.

At a used bookstore, I found a book(1) about Marian Franz that illuminated the history behind their attempts.

Weirdly enough, there was a personal dedication in the front by David Gross(2), one her colleagues and someone who wrote extensively about the 'War Tax Resistance'.

I'm not religious, so it kinda made me sad, but that book sent me down a rabbit hole. Could you live on 20k a year to avoid income tax and contributing to a war effort? Its impressive.

(1) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6553714-a-persistent-voi...

(2) https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/11/can-qui...

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#199

Post by spenczar5 »

rtomanek wrote: post #107
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand I have always lived in Northern Italy, and around half of my taxes go to the poorer regions of Italy, mostly to be squandered by corruption, clientelism, and organized crime. Heh, funny that richer parts of the EU say this about Italy itself.

Not sure what you find funny about it? And I don't think they do. Some people, sure. Every population has a bunch of people who would say things like that. Because they can, because they enjoy it, it likely makes them feel better, or so they think. And there are people who enjoy listening to them and repeating what they say.

I think the humor is in the irony, of an northern Italian saying "sheesh, I can't believe my money goes to the south, where it gets wasted!" and then a northern European saying exactly the same thing.

It's not about whether it's true, or accurate, it's just "funny" because irony can be funny.

Re: Japan's Hometown Tax

#200

Post by gknoy »

mschuetz wrote: post #35
ekianjo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schools in Europe and Australia are funded by centralized government This has the other problem that in Europe, governments write all the education program to the letter and this leads to complete brainwashing of the kids or silly educational policies (like completely changing how kids learn how to read, which led to about half a generation of kids with very poor reading/orthographic skills in France just to name o…

> leads to complete brainwashing of the kids Says the one (I presume) from the country that recites the pledge of allegiance in school.

I find that saying the pledge of allegiance (when I visit my kids' schools for things) is an interesting affair. It's an opportunity to reflect on both the ideal of the Republic, and the ways / extent that the state of the Union has changed over time.

I find it poignant that I am pledging allegiance to the Flag and the Republic, rather than to the political party in charge, or to the federal government, etc. Are the differences meaningful? Why? What can I be doing better as a citizen? These are all questions that can run through my mind when saying the pledge with mindfulness.

You're right, there's probably an element of brainwashing there. However, one can also use it as an opportunity to meditate on civic duty. :)

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