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Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

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Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#181

Post by philipodonnell »

abalone wrote: post #115
ams6110 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone in the design lab (not in production) downloaded infected firmware from SM's support site Other than the claim that the infected firmware is "still hosted there" (which beggars belief) that sounds more like an engineer was spearphished and fooled into downloading firmware from what he believed to be the SM support site.

FYI "still" meant as of the time of the follow-up reporting in 2016, not today. I think it's believable that SuperMicro's support site got hacked. But I agree that was an incident on par with a sole developer installing malware on their system, not a supply chain compromise or major security incident with production systems.

Isn't hacking the support site a supply chain compromise?

Much discussion about software supply chain attacks was around the role of NPM as a vector, which can be thought of as a source of "drivers" that make various products and services work, similar to the role that a support site for a physical manufacturer plays.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#182

Post by jschwartzi »

wpdev_63 wrote: post #100

I really have little doubt that the Chinese are integrating their spy chips into computer hardware going to the big four or even the pentagon. It's probably how they stole the designs to the f-35[you know that plane that costs over a trillion dollars to develop]. It would catastrophic if apple knew or even acknowledges the possibility of the Chinese having a backdoor into their servers and would result in massive shi…

I find it extremely hard to believe that China is inserting magic backdoor chips into all of our computer hardware. What's much more likely is that they were able to bribe or threaten some engineers into giving information away. That's been a common tactic since spying became a thing.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#183

Post by DuskStar »

stephenr wrote: post #152
moftz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook would have to know. If there is something like a NSL involved, Apple's legal team would have already reviewed it. That same legal team would also be advising Cook on what he publicly says since he is an officer in the company. He could lose his job or be fined for saying false information in the press (think about what happened to Musk) so its in his and his legal team's best interest to only say true things…

> If there is something like a NSL involved, Apple's legal team would have already reviewed it. Apple's official statement clearly said, they're not under any form of NSL or gag order. The prevailing logic seems to be that US courts still believe the government can't force you to say something against your will, only prevent you from saying something.

And how would the CEO know what sort of NSL some datacenter employees are under?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#184

Post by kodablah »

jessaustin wrote: post #127
GrinningFool wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect that if it's fabricated, Bloomberg will have to face a slew of defamation suits from the named companies. If it's real, the absence of those suits may tell us something too...

One element of such a case would be showing that the claims are untrue. Discovery on that question would dig deep into all sorts of areas that no one besides Bloomberg would want dug into.

> no one besides Bloomberg would want dug into

Well no one at those companies maybe, but I sure would. Transparency is the only way truth will be known here, and that's against the nature of secret sources and against the nature of Apple in general. If only there were an independent arbiter we could trust that could view both sides in confidence and provide an independent ruling, but there's too much statecraft involved for that to happen.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#185

Post by garmaine »

stephenr wrote: post #152
moftz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook would have to know. If there is something like a NSL involved, Apple's legal team would have already reviewed it. That same legal team would also be advising Cook on what he publicly says since he is an officer in the company. He could lose his job or be fined for saying false information in the press (think about what happened to Musk) so its in his and his legal team's best interest to only say true things…

> If there is something like a NSL involved, Apple's legal team would have already reviewed it. Apple's official statement clearly said, they're not under any form of NSL or gag order. The prevailing logic seems to be that US courts still believe the government can't force you to say something against your will, only prevent you from saying something.

> Apple's official statement clearly said, they're not under any form of NSL or gag order.

Except that a NSL can (legally) command the recipient to lie about it.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#186

Post by chipotle_coyote »

emilfihlman wrote: post #157
fhood wrote: post #9

Man, I am now 90% convinced that someone intentionally misled Bloomberg. It looks like this may end up being an extremely embarrassing episode for them.

Bloomberg? Sounds more like Bloomberg was the messenger and is being silenced.

If Bloomberg was "being silenced," we...all wouldn't be talking about this.

I'm aware how pedantic this may come across, but words matter, and in cases like this it seems dreadfully important not to fuel or even create conspiracy theories through carelessly (or perhaps carefully) chosen phrasing.

It's possible that Bloomberg got everything right, and that the vigorous denials from the cited companies and the objections from their own named sources and the actual denials (rather than "non-denial denials") from government agencies and the continued lack of corroboration from any other independent investigative or journalistic organizations is all part of a massive coordinated conspiracy to discredit this reporting, which this same international cross-government/corporate cabal somehow couldn't just stop from getting out. But is it likely? Really?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#187

Post by joshuamorton »

olyjohn wrote: post #138
Drdrdrq wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect Bloomberg to do? Give up their sources? I'm sure they will have no trouble getting new stories if they did that, right? Given the size of the story and their commitment to it I would bet they were duped. There are many who would like to see them lose credibility, who would like to further escalate trade war with China, or who simply shorted some stocks... Or all of the above. But that's a bet, not…

Here's what I expect them to do. Show me a real picture of the chip. Show me some samples of the malicious traffic. Show me some code that they found, tell us which server models they found the affected hardware in. Somebody should have SOME shred of information on this, but there is none. You don't just sell thousands of servers, and not have a few of them that end up getting shipped to someone else, or have a few t…

Because it's easier to share words than steal hardware that may be classified due to it's security implications.

Which is easier? Telling me what you saw in someone else's safe, or giving me it's contents?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#188

Post by nil_pointer »

Tim Cook has called China the biggest and most important market for Apple. With this in mind, of course he wants the story retracted. Appeasing China is the most important thing for Apple. It definitely doesn't mean the Bloomberg story isn't true, though.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#189

Post by bilbo0s »

jschwartzi wrote: post #182
wpdev_63 wrote: post #100

I really have little doubt that the Chinese are integrating their spy chips into computer hardware going to the big four or even the pentagon. It's probably how they stole the designs to the f-35[you know that plane that costs over a trillion dollars to develop]. It would catastrophic if apple knew or even acknowledges the possibility of the Chinese having a backdoor into their servers and would result in massive shi…

I find it extremely hard to believe that China is inserting magic backdoor chips into all of our computer hardware. What's much more likely is that they were able to bribe or threaten some engineers into giving information away. That's been a common tactic since spying became a thing.

Doesn't even have to be an engineer. You gather intelligence wherever you can. The Chinese are at least as smart as I am, and for me, the guy who runs the xerox machine or cleans the office will do nicely, thank you very much. I don't need some high powered engineer. So I'm almost positive they don't either.

It seems like putting magical chips into computers is one of the most difficult methods of acquiring what at the root would be the same intelligence.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#190

Post by roblabla »

garmaine wrote: post #185
stephenr wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is something like a NSL involved, Apple's legal team would have already reviewed it. Apple's official statement clearly said, they're not under any form of NSL or gag order. The prevailing logic seems to be that US courts still believe the government can't force you to say something against your will, only prevent you from saying something.

> Apple's official statement clearly said, they're not under any form of NSL or gag order. Except that a NSL can (legally) command the recipient to lie about it.

An NSL cannot force you to lie. You can say "no comment", and that's how it's always been handled. Why would they vehemently deny an NSL (with all the risks involved) when "no comment" would suffice ?
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