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Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

imediaethics.org

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Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#51
post #6

Rehabilitation doesn't always work. I doubt a sexual degenerate can be "cured". It's okay if they stay in prison just to be punished and are taken apart from society. It's okay if they can never be around children.

According to your system, logically the smartest thing to do would be simply to execute pedophiles. Since we aren't doing that, presumably we are rehabilitating them. Since we are rehabilitating them, presumably we believe it is possible to rehabilitate them.

So what evidence do you have to challenge the criminal rehabilitation system in the USA?

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#52
post #48
post #10

The ‘right to be forgotten’ is backwards. Much better would be a 'right to remember'. The right to be forgotten is a positive right, in that it requires other people to take action (e.g. delist a story from Google) to fulfill it. A right to remember would be a negative right. Like a freedom of the press doesn't require the government to subsidize a printing press or equivalent, a right to remember would just mean tha…

Not sure why everyone is just following with that terminology - positive/negative rights. All rights are 'negative rights'. What you're calling positive rights are in fact privileges.

I know the word gets a bad rap, but I feel entitlement is a better word. Driving is a privilege, you have to prove yourself worthy and it can be revoked relatively easily.

Voting is (typically) a positive right - an entitlement, it’s guranteed to all citizens with no barrier to entry. Just existing as a citizen is enough (barring circumstances like felony conviction, though personally I’m against removing voting rights under any circumstance).

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#53
Former news editor here.

Perhaps the biggest danger in this and other similar policies is not how it is applied today -- removing the names of people accused of minor crimes that have had their records expunged seems like a compassionate policy, given the effects it can have on things like employment prospects -- but in how it may be applied in the future.

The idea that a newspaper archive is a collection of living documents, capable of being amended, rather than fixed snapshots of the past, is a fundamental shift.

My concern is that down the line, more alterations will be permitted to be made, and potentially for less reasonable reasons, and then it's only a matter of time before archival information cannot be trusted, because there may be no way to determine what, if anything, has changed.

That didn't used to be the case. When print copies of newspapers were used for library archives, it was practically impossible to alter all extant hard copies.

But nowadays, unless this content gets indexed and preserved by numerous outside entities, it would be very easy for a newspaper to silently modify its own archives.

I would be more comfortable if the newspaper included, as part of its policy, a requirement that a versioning ledger be published along with any altered archival stories, such as:

* On 2018-10-19, this story was edited to remove the name of the suspect, under our "Right to Be Forgotten" policy. A copy of the original story is available for inspection at our office.

That, at least, would allow people perusing the archives to know whether a story had been altered long after publication, and it would give people who really need the information to acquire it (albeit not easily).

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#54
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is always my argument against this sort of thing. Enforcing one person's right to be forgotten is infringing on someone else's right to remember. Say, for example, I get beat up by someone. They are convicted and go to jail, but then in 10 years time they get their record expunged. Am I no longer allowed to tell people about what happened? I should be allowed to tell my story. I should be allowed to tell pe…

It's not your right to dispense such justice--that in fact belongs to the state in a civilized society. I think this example proves the exact opposite of what you desire. Someone who has spent time in jail and had their record expunged 10 years later has been deemed by the state to have satisfied the burden of their offense, and, yes, their right to have their actions forgiven and forgotten should be at its zenith. […

Where are you getting that serving your time in jail gives you the right to have your actions forgotten? Society 'forgives' you when you serve your full sentence, but there is nothing stated anywhere that your victims need to forget what you did once your sentence is up.

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#55
post #45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you proposing that the rule should be "of course you're still allowed to tell people what happened, but only if you do so inefficiently and with little effect"? What if the top hit is a personal website describing the crime and its effects, rather than a town newspaper--should Google knock that personal website off the front page?

Why let people out of prison? What's the point of temporary incarceration without any form of rehabilitation? Presumably, if society is willing to let people return it must gain from their return. That cost benefit trade-off is the exact same one that occurs with your website example.

Rehabilitation is certainly in society's interests--I don't imagine there's any argument to be made against it.

However, the 1st amendment to the US Constitution puts strong limitations on the ability of the government to prevent or censor expression. How can the worthy goal of improving convicts' rehabilitation--albeit via suppressing news and opinion--possibly square with free speech?

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#56
post #45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you proposing that the rule should be "of course you're still allowed to tell people what happened, but only if you do so inefficiently and with little effect"? What if the top hit is a personal website describing the crime and its effects, rather than a town newspaper--should Google knock that personal website off the front page?

Why let people out of prison? What's the point of temporary incarceration without any form of rehabilitation? Presumably, if society is willing to let people return it must gain from their return. That cost benefit trade-off is the exact same one that occurs with your website example.

I wonder if this rule should apply to corporations. Should HN autokill comments calling Microsoft a convicted monopolist? They paid their fine, so all is good, right?

Or what about bad yelp reviews? If you exterminate the cockroaches, can you delete all the bad reviews?

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#57
post #54
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not your right to dispense such justice--that in fact belongs to the state in a civilized society. I think this example proves the exact opposite of what you desire. Someone who has spent time in jail and had their record expunged 10 years later has been deemed by the state to have satisfied the burden of their offense, and, yes, their right to have their actions forgiven and forgotten should be at its zenith. […

Where are you getting that serving your time in jail gives you the right to have your actions forgotten? Society 'forgives' you when you serve your full sentence, but there is nothing stated anywhere that your victims need to forget what you did once your sentence is up.

That's a fair point. The comment should have been more carefully phrased as aspirational. Recognizing that's not the current state of affairs, it does seem that not "forgetting" is akin to not "forgiving" in modern society. Consider trying to vote, let alone get a job after being released from prison if your name is plastered all over the internet in connection with a crime. That seems to be a second, extra-judicial sentence in fact if the law has in function "forgiven" you.

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#58

I wonder what would happen if a world leader, like the president of France, invoked his EU-given right to be forgotten. Imagine the chaos, not only on web sites, but across all of society. Would schoolbooks have to be re-written? What would teachers say when children asked who the xth president of the republic was?

The President of France does not have a right to be forgotten, as people of public interest are exempt.

people of public interest are exempt

Sounds like a new badge of honor for minor "celebrities" and people who are self-important.

Are there codified specifications for "people of public interest?"

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#59
post #43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not your right to dispense such justice--that in fact belongs to the state in a civilized society. I think this example proves the exact opposite of what you desire. Someone who has spent time in jail and had their record expunged 10 years later has been deemed by the state to have satisfied the burden of their offense, and, yes, their right to have their actions forgiven and forgotten should be at its zenith. […

US courts have not always agreed with that interpretation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Hearst_Corporation

Noted and agreed. See the comment below. The original response should have been phrased as aspirational. Clearly there's no right to be forgotten in the law today. However, query whether it's possible for the law to truly "forgive" a crime after a sentence is served without some efforts being taken to "forget".

Re: Cleveland.com’s ‘right to be forgotten’ removes names from some crime stories

#60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is always my argument against this sort of thing. Enforcing one person's right to be forgotten is infringing on someone else's right to remember. Say, for example, I get beat up by someone. They are convicted and go to jail, but then in 10 years time they get their record expunged. Am I no longer allowed to tell people about what happened? I should be allowed to tell my story. I should be allowed to tell pe…

It's not your right to dispense such justice--that in fact belongs to the state in a civilized society. I think this example proves the exact opposite of what you desire. Someone who has spent time in jail and had their record expunged 10 years later has been deemed by the state to have satisfied the burden of their offense, and, yes, their right to have their actions forgiven and forgotten should be at its zenith. […

This isn't about dispensing justice. This is about my personal right to own my experience of my life and those I interact with. Saying that my anger over having been abused by someone is no longer justified just because the courts have seen fit to expunge their records of the crime is deeply intrusive. The criminal court's job is to rectify the individual's relationship with the government. It does nothing to rectify the relationship between criminal and victim.
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