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The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

quantamagazine.org

21–30 of 71 posts

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#21
post #11

Could the anthropic principle taken into conjunction with our continued existence be used to show that the MWI is more probable? Here's the situation that I'm thinking about: it's well known that we've come close to nuclear annihilation multiple times, either by accident or by tensions between the US and the USSR in the Cold War. If the MWI is correct, it is probable that a good chunk of these worlds have been reduce…

I don't think that's how the anthropic principle works, but I'm not actually sure how the anthropic principle works.

To my understanding, the anthropic principle is basically: among the near-infinite set of possible physical laws, we can immediately rule out the ones that would prevent us from being around trying to figure out which physical laws govern the universe.

I think there's two varieties of this. The "weak anthropic principle" says, that doesn't mean those laws couldn't exist, there's no weird metaphysics around it, it's just that if the underlying physical laws didn't allow us to exist, you'd just have a universe that didn't have anyone in it and so the physics of that universe would be a moot point that didn't matter to anyone.

The "strong anthropic principle" says, wait, no, there is some metaphysical significance to this, and it's somehow not even logically possible for a non-anthropic universe to exist. I find that a little self-absorbed on the part of humanity as a whole, but that would tie in a little better to your quantum suicide idea. The weak anthropic principle, in contrast, would just kind of say, "yeah, there's a chance we all blow ourselves up, and if we do, I guess nobody will be around to care about physics anymore".

Even the strong anthropic principle doesn't prove much here. "Nuclear annihilation" probably wouldn't actually result in complete human extinction. Some people would survive. Individual quantum immortality doesn't stop you from shooting a hole through your brain and being neurologically disabled for the rest of your life, so collective quantum immortality also wouldn't stop you from living in a post-apocalyptic hellhole. Also, even the strong anthropic principle doesn't actually mean that humanity can't go extinct; after all, it didn't prevent the universe from existing for billions of years before humans started to exist. Maybe the real strong anthropic principle doesn't even apply to us, it applies to a species of avian hive-minded critters on a planet circling an unnamed star in the Andromeda galaxy, and as a weird side effect of living in a universe that is metaphysically required to permit for the existence of the Andromeda flying hivemind, humanity kind of shows up for a few hundred millennia and gets to do some physics before getting wiped out by a swarm of paperclip maximizers.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#22
post #9

Of course it seems weird to think of Many Worlds as somehow manufacturing universes for each fluctuation. That seems weird and wrong ... because it probably is. A better way to think of it is as the equivalent of the relativistic block universe. All these different spaces already exist in some superspace, and ‘random’ events take you from one space to a neighboring one. Nothing is manufactured.

You can also think of it (at least I think of it) as a domain-specific subset of modal realism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_realism

From a certain point of view, these kinds of metaphysical ideas are pointless in the sense that it's impossible to actually determine whether they're true or false, and even if you could ask God and God told you, the answer wouldn't matter. It's to some extent a completely meaningless distinction that doesn't describe anything that's directly useful to us. On the other hand, as an illustrative model, it can be an intuitive way to understand nondeterminism. If it isn't intuitive to you and some other model is more intuitive, use that instead. Until the differences between these models become somehow falsifiable, it doesn't matter anyway.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#23
post #4

>What can you do with this power to generate worlds and selves? You could become a billionaire by playing quantum Russian roulette. Quantum suicide isn't exploitable, for reasons I went over in a thread on reddit: >One thing about these quantum immortality (or modal realism, dust theory, etc.) arguments is they imply one should expect to end up in those proportion of worlds that have the highest measure in which "you…

Assuming Many Worlds to be true, wouldn't exploiting it be inevitable? Decisions and choice would work somewhat differently under that model. Any decision that could possibly be made would be made. Should you try using quantum suicide to win a game of Russian Roulette? This question loses its meaning, because you do make the attempt in some universes (both successfully and unsuccessfully), in others you don't try it.

I agree the potential for exploitation doesn't present a counter argument though.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#24

Quantum suicide is a fascinating thought experiment. If consciousness is a property of a certain type of brain (or calculation?), then the concept of ‘’’me” is just a variation of the anthropic principle: I believe my subjective experience to be something unique, but there’s nothing unique or special about a human brain and the conscious experiences it produces. So even if there are billions of worlds, there aren’t b…

>One consciousness is simply extinguished forever. The other continues.

If there is one instance of a widely-distributed program installed on a particular computer, and the instance of the program on that particular computer is deleted, but the program continues to exist in identical form on many other computers, then the program continues to exist in spite of the fact that one of its instances has been deleted.

If consciousness is thought of as a process inextricably tied to a particular physical substrate, then our own consciousnesses are constantly being extinguished, and we all die countless 'deaths' every day as the matter in our brains is recycled and replaced.

If, on the other hand, consciousness is viewed as an information process that can be realised on any suitable physical substrate, then extinguishing one instance of consciousness in one particular universe by means of quantum suicide doesn't necessarily mean that that particular consciousness is extinguished forever, as long as an identical instance, or instances, of it continue to exist somewhere in the wavefunction. The Many Worlds Interpretation suggests there may be an infinity of such instances.

There is a tendency to think of these instances as copies, and to think of each such copy of a consciousness as a separate doppelganger existing in some unreachable reality. But if the instances are truly identical in every respect, then Leibniz' principle of the identity of indiscernibles [1] suggests that it might not be right to think of them as being separate: in some deep sense, they're all actually the same single thing.

The philosopher Derek Parfit developed a now-famous thought experiment in the phiolosophy of identity [2] in which he encouraged people to think about a scenario in which a malfunctioning teleporter creates two identical copies of a person, one of which must then be destroyed by the machine. Obviously we tend to sympathise with the 'copy' faced with imminent destruction, and that might lead us to reject the idea that the continuation of a physically identical copy of our self is a sufficient condition for survival.

There is a problem with this thought experiment though, in my view, and quantum suicide is in a sense a type of 'fix' for it. If there is a situation in which two copies of a person exist, and one copy is about to be destroyed, then the two copies are necessarily no longer 'indiscernible' in Leibniz' sense. Parfit's example is actually a striking case of indiscernibility, because at the point at which one of the copies is about to be destroyed, the two copies actually have some very different memories and thoughts. This version of Parfit's thought experiment therefore really involves two similar, but not identical, people, one of whom is about to be killed.

The quantum suicide thought experiment, in contrast, necessarily ensures that no conscious entity ever experiences its own imminent death in the same manner as Parfit's version, because the 'suicide' is designed to take place faster than the brain can process a thought. The other major difference is of course that the 'copies' that survive the suicide are not created by a teleporter, but are a necessary feature of the wavefunction.

An alternative to saying that one consciousness is extinguished forever in quantum suicide would be to say that the single consciousness existing across the 'copies' in the wavefunction no longer has conscious access to events in the universes in which the suicide occurs, but survives in, and continues to have conscious access to, the universes where the suicide does not take place.

It only makes sense to think of one consciousness as having been 'extinguished' if that consciousness is thought of as being inextricably linked to one particular physical substrate. If consciousness is thought of as an information processing pattern that can be instantiated on any suitable substrate, then all that matters is that such a substrate exists somewhere. If the substrate is physically possible, then the Many Worlds Interpretation requires it to exist.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_of_indiscernibles

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#25
post #11

Could the anthropic principle taken into conjunction with our continued existence be used to show that the MWI is more probable? Here's the situation that I'm thinking about: it's well known that we've come close to nuclear annihilation multiple times, either by accident or by tensions between the US and the USSR in the Cold War. If the MWI is correct, it is probable that a good chunk of these worlds have been reduce…

I don't think that's how the anthropic principle works, but I'm not actually sure how the anthropic principle works. To my understanding, the anthropic principle is basically: among the near-infinite set of possible physical laws, we can immediately rule out the ones that would prevent us from being around trying to figure out which physical laws govern the universe. I think there's two varieties of this. The "weak a…

If the MWI is true, then there must be some universes that would experience multiple highly improbable events. These events would be a hint to residents of that universe that the MWI is correct. Why wouldn't the usual Bayesian analysis apply here?

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's how the anthropic principle works, but I'm not actually sure how the anthropic principle works. To my understanding, the anthropic principle is basically: among the near-infinite set of possible physical laws, we can immediately rule out the ones that would prevent us from being around trying to figure out which physical laws govern the universe. I think there's two varieties of this. The "weak a…

If the MWI is true, then there must be some universes that would experience multiple highly improbable events. These events would be a hint to residents of that universe that the MWI is correct. Why wouldn't the usual Bayesian analysis apply here?

Your personal probability of observing a universe that experiences multiple highly improbable events is the same whether or not MWI is true.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#27
MWI seems more elegant than Copenhagen in many formulations because the problem of the relative magnitudes of the worlds is swept under the rug. If I perform a quantum coin-flip with 2/3 possibility of heads, then it creates two worlds - but I end up in one of them twice as often - why? The only solutions I've seen to preserve the relative probabilities are: 1) sufficiently unlikely worlds sometimes just disappear, or 2) some kind of appeal to consciousness. These are at least as ad-hoc and hand-wavy as waveform collapse.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#28
post #2

Philip Ball explores the problems that many world interpretation poses to the concepts of self and meaningfulness of life in the sense that he understands them. Nothing in the article clearly points to problems in physics or even philosophy of physics in many world interpretation. Makes me feel uncomfortable is not very deep argument.

Agreed - the idea that selfhood and duality are illusions of perception have been around at least as long as Buddhism, and philosophically well articulated. They are hardly grounds for dismissing a theory of the fundamental universe.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#29
post #18
post #11

Could the anthropic principle taken into conjunction with our continued existence be used to show that the MWI is more probable? Here's the situation that I'm thinking about: it's well known that we've come close to nuclear annihilation multiple times, either by accident or by tensions between the US and the USSR in the Cold War. If the MWI is correct, it is probable that a good chunk of these worlds have been reduce…

No, because you can come up for very good arguments a priori for why two or more rational nuclear powers leads to a very stable world, because every party is very interested in preventing nuclear war if they are materialists.

Are they good arguments though?

Some would say that we observe through declassified information after the fact, that the "rational nuclear powers" were not themselves in control, and a series of accidents at lower levels could have, but didn't, cause disaster, mainly through luck.

Similarly, there was a recent thread that had information about how the only reason the first moon landing succeeded was because of a series of accidents, where a computer bug compensated for another unintended defect in the lander. History could have been vastly different via small pivotal events.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#30
I enjoyed reading this article. But at the beginning the author has this to say about objections to the MWI that are based on feeling:

> "This objection is rightly dismissed by saying that an affront to one’s sense of propriety is no grounds for rejecting a theory. Who are we to say how the world should behave?"

But really at the end of the article the conclusion about the problems with MWI feel similar:

> "But an idea that, when we pursue it seriously, makes that view inchoate and unspeakable doesn’t fulfill the function of science."

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