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The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

quantamagazine.org

11–20 of 71 posts

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#11
Could the anthropic principle taken into conjunction with our continued existence be used to show that the MWI is more probable?

Here's the situation that I'm thinking about: it's well known that we've come close to nuclear annihilation multiple times, either by accident or by tensions between the US and the USSR in the Cold War. If the MWI is correct, it is probable that a good chunk of these worlds have been reduced to ash. However, we currently find ourselves in a world where that has not happened, presumably due to the anthropic principle. Could we then give a numerical probability that MWI is correct, based on this fact?

I'm not a philosopher or physicist - just an interested layman.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#12
The Many-Worlds Interpretation is seriously mischaracterised in the summary at the top of the article (presumably not written by Ball himself) when it says this:

"The idea that the universe splits into multiple realities with every measurement has become an increasingly popular proposed solution to the mysteries of quantum mechanics."

This is a misrepresentation of what the Many-Worlds Interpretation actually suggests, and it is contradicted in the article itself by Ball:

"In effect, this implies that the entire universe is described by a gigantic wave function that contains within it all possible realities. This “universal wave function,” as Everett called it in his thesis, begins as a combination, or superposition, of all possible states of its constituent particles. As it evolves, some of these superpositions break down, making certain realities distinct and isolated from one another. In this sense, worlds are not exactly “created” by measurements; they are just separated. This is why we shouldn’t, strictly speaking, talk of the “splitting” of worlds (even though Everett did), as though two have been produced from one. Rather, we should speak of the unraveling of two realities that were previously just possible futures of a single reality."

The error in the summary is a common misrepresentation, and it leaves many people (including me, when I first heard of the Everett Interpretation) with the mistaken impression that the interpretation proposes some mysterious new mechanism that causes the entire universe to 'split' every time a physical interaction or observation occurs. This is pretty much the opposite of what the interpretation actually suggests, since its purpose is to dispense with the significance of observation and 'wavefunction collapse' in the Copenhagen Interpretation.

The physicist Max Tegmark (an adherent of the Everett Interpretation, who made a film[1] about Everett with Everett's son; a sad story, as Everett was unable to make a career for himself in physics due to the unpopularity of his most famous idea) I think puts it best when he says this about the Many-Worlds Interpretation in his book, Our Mathematical Universe:

"The rumours I'd heard suggested that Everett proposed crazy-sounding stuff like parallel universes and that our Universe would split into parallel universes whenever you made an observation. Indeed, even today, many of my physics colleagues still think that this is what Everett assumed. Reading Everett's book taught me a lesson not only in physics but also in sociology: I learned the importance of going back and checking the source material for yourself rather than relying on secondhand information. It's not only in politics that people get misquoted, misinterpreted and misrepresented, and Everett's Ph.D. thesis is a great example of something that, to first approximation, every-one in physics has an opinion about and almost nobody has read.[2]"

"The notion that at certain magic instances, reality undergoes some sort of metaphysical split into two branches that subsequently never interact isn't only a misrepresentation of Everett's thesis, but also inconsistent with Everett's postulate that the wavefunction never collapses, since the subsequent developments could in principle make the branches interfere with each other."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Worlds,_Parallel_Live...

[2] https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/manyworlds/pdf/dissertation... (Everett's original thesis)

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#13
post #8
post #3

Here's the article in short. 1. "Roland Omnès says the idea that every little quantum “measurement” spawns a world “gives an undue importance to the little differences generated by quantum events, as if each of them were vital to the universe.” This, he says, is contrary to what we generally learn from physics: that most of the fine details make no difference at all to what happens at larger scales." 2. "What can it…

People ridicule the nonlocality of Pilot Wave theory. But I’d rather question locality than embrace Everett’s many-worlds theory. If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost. Meanwhile as one good physics professor pointed out, none of these alternatives to PWT even rule out nonlocality. So why not just assume it and be done with the wei…

> If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost.

What about many worlds is complex? The Schrodinger equation predicts macroscopic decoherence. Macroscopic decoherence implies many worlds. Many worlds can hardly be called an interpretation. Rather, it is a prediction. It is just taking the Schrodinger equation literally. Every other "interpretation" is more complex, as they bolt things onto the Schrodinger equation, and often very ugly things, too.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#14
post #6

> This, he says, is contrary to what we generally learn from physics: that most of the fine details make no difference at all to what happens at larger scales." Oh? Since when have we disproved the butterfly effect?

> Since when have we disproved the butterfly effect?

There never was such a thing, not the way you are using it.

The butterfly effect is an observation in chaos theory that small changes in initial conditions can make large changes in output.

The "popular" usage of butterfly effect "A butterfly flapping its wings can eventually cause a hurricane" is not a thing that ever existed.

The difference is that one is directly fed into the output, the other is not, the other is filtered by huge amounts of noise.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#15
post #8
post #3

Here's the article in short. 1. "Roland Omnès says the idea that every little quantum “measurement” spawns a world “gives an undue importance to the little differences generated by quantum events, as if each of them were vital to the universe.” This, he says, is contrary to what we generally learn from physics: that most of the fine details make no difference at all to what happens at larger scales." 2. "What can it…

People ridicule the nonlocality of Pilot Wave theory. But I’d rather question locality than embrace Everett’s many-worlds theory. If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost. Meanwhile as one good physics professor pointed out, none of these alternatives to PWT even rule out nonlocality. So why not just assume it and be done with the wei…

>If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost.

Defenders of the Many-Worlds Interpretation, and some other types of multiverse theory such as Eternal Inflation, would actually say that the multiverse idea is the simpler alternative, not the more complex one.

Multiverse theories produce an abundance of universes, but the underlying description of those universes is typically simpler than alternatives that suppose a single, unique universe. Concepts such as wave function collapse or hidden variables, which actually add complexity to the theory, have to be introduced in order to get the theory to produce a unique observed reality.

One could have argued with Aristarchus or Hubble that the idea that there were other solar systems, or other galaxies, added more complexity than was necessary to explain reality. From a broader perspective though, our reality would actually be stranger and more difficult to explain if the properties we observed of our solar system, or our galaxy, were the only ones that could exist. Ditto our universe, say the Everettians.

Kepler desperately struggled to explain the properties of our solar system as the product of a unique and divine geometry before he discovered the more general truth [1], which allowed the existence of the infinity of alternative configurations which are now known to exist around other stars.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysterium_Cosmographicum

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#16
post #9

Of course it seems weird to think of Many Worlds as somehow manufacturing universes for each fluctuation. That seems weird and wrong ... because it probably is. A better way to think of it is as the equivalent of the relativistic block universe. All these different spaces already exist in some superspace, and ‘random’ events take you from one space to a neighboring one. Nothing is manufactured.

Well put; this is more or less what Everett actually proposed, and it's the interpretation that mainstream Everettians like Sean Carroll and Max Tegmark subscribe to.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#17
post #8
post #3

Here's the article in short. 1. "Roland Omnès says the idea that every little quantum “measurement” spawns a world “gives an undue importance to the little differences generated by quantum events, as if each of them were vital to the universe.” This, he says, is contrary to what we generally learn from physics: that most of the fine details make no difference at all to what happens at larger scales." 2. "What can it…

People ridicule the nonlocality of Pilot Wave theory. But I’d rather question locality than embrace Everett’s many-worlds theory. If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost. Meanwhile as one good physics professor pointed out, none of these alternatives to PWT even rule out nonlocality. So why not just assume it and be done with the wei…

The evidence against Pilot Waves keeps stacking up. https://www.quantamagazine.org/famous-experiment-dooms-pilot...

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#18
post #11

Could the anthropic principle taken into conjunction with our continued existence be used to show that the MWI is more probable? Here's the situation that I'm thinking about: it's well known that we've come close to nuclear annihilation multiple times, either by accident or by tensions between the US and the USSR in the Cold War. If the MWI is correct, it is probable that a good chunk of these worlds have been reduce…

No, because you can come up for very good arguments a priori for why two or more rational nuclear powers leads to a very stable world, because every party is very interested in preventing nuclear war if they are materialists.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People ridicule the nonlocality of Pilot Wave theory. But I’d rather question locality than embrace Everett’s many-worlds theory. If you need to postulate such amazing complexity just to say basically nothing in terms of realism, then you’ve already lost. Meanwhile as one good physics professor pointed out, none of these alternatives to PWT even rule out nonlocality. So why not just assume it and be done with the wei…

The evidence against Pilot Waves keeps stacking up. https://www.quantamagazine.org/famous-experiment-dooms-pilot...

The experiments described in that article have zero impact on Bohm's pilot wave theory, which is the only current pilot wave theory that is actually workable.

Re: The Many-Worlds Interpretation Has Many Problems

#20
post #4

>What can you do with this power to generate worlds and selves? You could become a billionaire by playing quantum Russian roulette. Quantum suicide isn't exploitable, for reasons I went over in a thread on reddit: >One thing about these quantum immortality (or modal realism, dust theory, etc.) arguments is they imply one should expect to end up in those proportion of worlds that have the highest measure in which "you…

I agree. I think quantum immortality is real, but even if I was 100% confident, I don't see a clear way to take advantage of it beyond having a long-term outlook.

If you did want to build a suicide machine, it better be perfect. If you are trying to win the lottery with say 1:10^9 odds, your machine better have less than a 1:10^18 chance of seriously injuring you but not killing you. If you are capable of building such a machine, you can become rich anyway.

On top of that, it's quite selfish - if anyone out there loves you and knows you are doing this, they should hate you.

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