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OpenBSD 6.4 released

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Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#101

Post by yellowapple »

ch_123 wrote: post #28
JoachimS wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well does the inverse works - running VMs in OpenBSD to use Windows, Linux? Is it for example possible to run Virtualbox with good performance in OpenBSD? I'm tempted at using OpenBSD as OS, but need to run things like MS Office. A VM is probably the easiest way to do that.

There is an OpenBSD-specific hypervisor (vmm) in recent releases. I cannot comment on whether it is suitable for running VMs at this time.

From what I've gathered (and experienced last time I've tried it), Windows support is nonexistent right now. That might change eventually, but OpenBSD and Linux (and I think NetBSD?) are the initial targets.

QEMU is available in packages/ports, though; while almost certainly slow, it's a start. VirtualBox on Linux requires a kernel module, so unless someone manages to port that to OpenBSD (which would translate to adding it to OpenBSD's kernel, which doesn't support loadable kernel modules anymore), that one probably ain't an option.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#102

Post by toyg »

yellowapple wrote: post #99
atmosx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live without docker containers? The fact that docker doesn’t run on BSDs is what drove me away.

...the same way the world has managed to survive for decades without Linux containers in general (let alone specific wrappers around that like Docker is)? With OpenBSD specifically, you can get 90% of the way there with chroots, standard process isolation, and a bit of shell scripting to handle deployment automation. Yeah, Docker's cool, but it's really not that hard to run multiple applications/services on the same…

> With OpenBSD specifically, you can get 90% of the way there with chroots, standard process isolation, and a bit of shell scripting

This is a classic case of "THAT HackerNews response to Dropbox" [1].

If it's that easy, why isn't there a prepackaged wrapper with simple switches, rather than leaving developers to fight for themselves among piles of custom hacks?

The problem is not just deployment, the Docker differentiation is simplification of the development pipeline. OpenBSD should seriously look at their story in that area, because it's one of the few where they could still potentially compete (because Docker is still fundamentally a pile of hacks, and pretty insecure too).

Unless, of course, everyone is happy to remain "the little project that could" and crack jokes like the BCHS stack.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#103

Post by [deleted] »

enriquto wrote: post #89
JoachimS wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MS Office is just one of many applications that I need to use. I use loads of EDA tools that either only exists for Windows, or Linux. I have been a user of LibreOffice since it was called StarOffice. It is dog slow, still has an ugly UI, crashes etc. But for many things it has been and is good enough. (and keeps getting better). Unfortunately, customers wants to use Word-specific files, Excel-specific files with mac…

In your situation, then, you'll be happy by running openbsd in a virtual machine from your windows.

[deleted]

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#104

Post by yellowapple »

heywire wrote: post #24
mruts wrote: post #13

Linux is a depressing mess after you've used OpenBSD. Such a high quality system, with stellar documentation. It's unfortunate that Linux has become so popular even though the BSD's are so much better. A bad historical accident. Damn you Linus...

Is OpenBSD suitable for use on a laptop? I have a Dell Latitute 7370 running KDE Neon, and it runs really well. All hardware is supported, battery life is on-par with Windows, etc. Would OpenBSD work well on this laptop?

I don't know about that specific laptop, but I was running OpenBSD on my work laptop (ThinkPad T470) for awhile and it worked reasonably well (though I'm more tolerant of things like suspend/resume not working right).

I ended up having to switch to Slackware, though; lots of stuff I have to use for work that simply doesn't run on OpenBSD. If vmm gets to the point where I'm able to run Linux desktop apps with reasonable performance (and ideally a reasonable degree of integration with the rest of the system) I might try switching back.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#105

Post by DblPlusUngood »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #66
RandomTisk wrote: post #17

I run OpenBSD as my border firewall which it handles very well. One thing I wish that OpenBSD devs would change in their philosophy is the --help messages. Many commands simply offer a list of switches, as if that's somehow helpful. Sometimes you need the detail in a man page, but a lot of times you don't and it would save so much time and energy to have a succinct list in the --help message itself. # syspatch --help…

Read the manpage. One thing I really dislike about modern UNIXes is their lack of decent manpages in place of standins like --help. I love the BSDs and especially OpenBSD for their attention to manpages. It's the main reason why I don't use Linux anymore unless I have to. Adding detailed --help messages would take time away from maintaining manpages, it also presents a duplication of information. If you want to know…

> I love the BSDs and especially OpenBSD for their attention to manpages. It's the main reason why I don't use Linux anymore unless I have to.

I completely agree. The difference in the quality of manpages between OpenBSD and Linux alone is enough for me to prefer OpenBSD.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#106

Post by tyfon »

* PIE support for the m88k platform.

I'm quite amazed that there exists hardware where they can test this! Maybe there are some embedded systems still using motorola chips?

Anyway, OpenBSD is great. I'm running it on my router and it also powers my 96 mb ram dual pentium pro 200 mhz computer from the 90s :) That computer also has a quantum fireball 20 gb disk as it's main storage, another thing I am amazed that still runs..

Donate to this project, it deserves it!

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#107

Post by smhenderson »

toyg wrote: post #102
yellowapple wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...the same way the world has managed to survive for decades without Linux containers in general (let alone specific wrappers around that like Docker is)? With OpenBSD specifically, you can get 90% of the way there with chroots, standard process isolation, and a bit of shell scripting to handle deployment automation. Yeah, Docker's cool, but it's really not that hard to run multiple applications/services on the same…

> With OpenBSD specifically, you can get 90% of the way there with chroots, standard process isolation, and a bit of shell scripting This is a classic case of "THAT HackerNews response to Dropbox" [1]. If it's that easy, why isn't there a prepackaged wrapper with simple switches, rather than leaving developers to fight for themselves among piles of custom hacks? The problem is not just deployment, the Docker differen…

OpenBSD should seriously look at their story in that area, because it's one of the few where they could still potentially compete (because Docker is still fundamentally a pile of hacks, and pretty insecure too).

I’m pretty sure the Open BSD developers are completely comfortable with their story. They develop this software for themselves first. If you like it and it’s useful to you you are welcome to it. If not, look elsewhere. That’s been their working philosophy all along and if you ask me that’s what makes it so great to use. Every piece of the system is carefully thought out and organized so it doesn’t suffer from nearly as much feature creep as other systems.

And as far as setting up chroit and isolating processes; it’s not hard and sometimes you don’t need someone else to write a script for you when you can do it yourself in 10 steps or less.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#108

Post by notaplumber »

tyfon wrote: post #106

* PIE support for the m88k platform. I'm quite amazed that there exists hardware where they can test this! Maybe there are some embedded systems still using motorola chips? Anyway, OpenBSD is great. I'm running it on my router and it also powers my 96 mb ram dual pentium pro 200 mhz computer from the 90s :) That computer also has a quantum fireball 20 gb disk as it's main storage, another thing I am amazed that still…

A dedicated developer is keeping it alive by maintaining support for the OMRON LUNA-88K & LUNA-88K2 Unix workstations from Japan.

https://www.openbsd.org/luna88k.html

OpenBSD also used to run on Motorola's 88k VME boards, but the mvme88k port was discontinued after 5.5.

https://www.openbsd.org/mvme88k.html

If you have any spare parts/systems, I suspect aoyama@ would be interested in hearing from you.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#109

Post by MaxBarraclough »

pjmlp wrote: post #75
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For almost all of us. Companies extend the BSD OSs with proprietary additions, then abandon the work and it gets lost. With Linux, everyone is forced to play nice and release under the GPL, and the work gets to live as long as people value it. Hence the Linux kernel snowballing and taking over the world, whereas the BSDs have not, despite being at least as strong technically. The better Linux gets, the more people ta…

Hence why companies are now trying to move away from Linux on embedded, e.g. ARM mbed, RTOS, Zephyr, Fuchsia, ....

Sure, Linux doesn't have a total monopoly in every domain. Sony used FreeBSD as the basis of the OSs of the PlayStation 3 and the PlayStation 4, for instance, and the work they did will never be contributed back.

I don't see any proprietary Unix seriously competing with Linux any time soon though.

Re: OpenBSD 6.4 released

#110

Post by lmaximus1983 »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #54
auslander wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL (distribute your code) is better than BSD permissive (do what you want)? For whom?

For almost all of us. Companies extend the BSD OSs with proprietary additions, then abandon the work and it gets lost. With Linux, everyone is forced to play nice and release under the GPL, and the work gets to live as long as people value it. Hence the Linux kernel snowballing and taking over the world, whereas the BSDs have not, despite being at least as strong technically. The better Linux gets, the more people ta…

I actually created an account as this is one of those things that gets repeated a lot and IMO it simply isn't true.

1. The BSDs adoption was severely hurt in the 90s by the AT&T lawsuit, it basically stopped several years of development while the lawsuit legal status was clarified. Linux and the GNU tooling didn't have that problem. If the lawsuit never took place it is doubtful whether the Linux kernel would have got as much interest as it did at the time.

2. If you don't keep up contribute your changes back to upstream (whatever the license) eventually you will be left behind and have to maintain your own incompatible version. It is in your interest to send upstream patches.

3. GPL code gets stolen all the time and put into propriety software. I've worked at loads of places that have just straight out cut and pasted GPL code into their own product (usually this is done without management's approval). Large projects such as the Linux kernel companies can't really get away with it. However a lot of companies don't build software for the masses, most build bespoke software that is only deployed on one or two servers on a company intranet and the general public will never see it. A lot of developers will just straight up steal code (not caring about the license) from wherever. A surprising number of companies still don't even use source control, let alone bother reviewing code.

4. Companies do contribute back to BSD licensed projects, however this is normally financially not through patches.

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