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US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

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Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#341

Post by malvosenior »

forapurpose wrote: post #336
malvosenior wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the removal of market manipulation (subsidies on shipping). We should see more innovation because the market can act freely now. For instance, now that China will have to pay for their full shipping, some product may increase in cost to the point where they could be manufactured and sold in the US, spurring innovation. The fewer artificial market constraints the better. > Finally, the greatest American innova…

> I think we can say that US democracy has not "resulted in an explosion of peace and liberty unlikely anything the world has ever seen". But we have. Name any other period in world history that has seen the same spread of freedom and peace. There is nothing that comes close. > The fewer artificial market constraints the better. The Postal Treaty, and free trade and globalization in general, is a removal of artificia…

> But we have. Name any other period in world history that has seen the same spread of freedom and peace. There is nothing that comes close.

I count the middle east and south east Asia as part of the world, and no what we spread there was not freedom and peace, it was/is decades of war and destruction.

I think you're referencing the cold war and the lack of direct conflict between major superpowers in the 20th century. That was a direct result of mutually assured destruction and the industrialization of the military. It was not caused by democracy. It was also replaced by a number of proxy wars. Again, not peace and freedom.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#342

Post by jonsbu »

rprenger wrote: post #65
derekmhewitt wrote: post #6

Not weighing in on if this is a good or bad thing overall, but I did listen to a pretty good NPR podcast a while back that explains a little more about this treaty and how it was affecting businesses in the US. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...

I really liked that podcast as well. If I remember correctly, one take away from the podcast that is relevant to a lot of comments below was that the U.S. used to get a net benefit from the weird international mail system. It was more recently that the import/export by direct mail balance shifted to make it a net loss to the U.S. Though it didn't sound like who the net winners and losers would be was strongly conside…

Thats the first mention of how u.s. used to get a net benefit as recently as 3 years ago, and how little it lost since then.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#343

Post by merpnderp »

ed_balls wrote: post #279
GlobalFrog wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the theory. I might be pessimistic, but it looks to me that everyone claims that one want that even playing field and at the same time, hides as much subsidies as possible to be able to protect ones own industries. Europe is heavily subsidizing its agriculture. The US are heavily subsidizing anything that has a link to anything military and oil. And others are doing the same. True, a few markets have been fre…

> Europe is heavily subsidizing its agriculture USA as well, but there is a good reason for it. It's a strategic. You are 9 meals away from a revolution. Other subsidies are for strategic purposes. There are always a few abuses which you hear in the news, but the logic is sound.

"You are 9 meals away from a revolution." -- See Venezuela.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#344

Post by oicu812 »

yardie wrote: post #136
chaostheory wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't we still paying for shipping through taxes, since the USPS is a public institution?

No. The USPS is in the constitution because the Framer’s thought it was important to put there. But it is completley self-funded at this stage.

I call bullshit... They receive $100 million in tax dollars per year to subsidize blind and overseas citizens. They also get $18 billion per year in tax benefits. That is not self-funded by any stretch.

https://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/jul/24/am... http://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#345

Post by oicu812 »

jayd16 wrote: post #77

Do people in this thread realize the USPS is almost entirely self funded? I see a lot of talk about tax dollars etc. The USPS doesn't work that way.

Almost entirely... except for the $100 million in tax dollars per year they receive to subsidize blind and overseas citizens. They also get $18 billion per year in tax benefits. NOT self-funded, never will be.

https://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/jul/24/am... http://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#346

Post by loco5niner »

atomi wrote: post #188
godzillabrennus wrote: post #2

A friend helped the Wall Street Journal expose the damage this treaty was doing to his small business in the United States as it tried to fend off counterfeiters. https://www.wsj.com/articles/this-subsidy-for-china-is-dumb-... Seems like a win for American innovation if you care about that thing. Seems like China is going to get hurt by this change which is bad for globalization if you are into that thing.

This is a nice anecdote. But what about the mass of consumers who will now have to pay a markup for the exact same product from an importer?

The purchaser will justly pay more. Under the current system, the US tax payer pays for it.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#347

Post by prolikewh0a »

malvosenior wrote: post #267
prolikewh0a wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm low income for where I live and buy a lot of basic $1-$5 clothes from China that would be $20-$30 equivalent in USA. This is going to hurt me directly. It's not like I'm buying food, housing, electricity from China, but having good quality fashionable clothes for very cheap when I can't afford anything except Goodwill here is beneficial for professionalism at my job, and overall satisfaction about myself. Trump s…

Please don't take offense, but these subsidies are paid for by our taxes and I have no interest in paying to help you dress nice. Also, if you're really buying clothes from China for $1-$5 you're almost certainly supporting child labor.

Subsidies? No, it's called free trade and efficient shipping. If I'm buying clothes anywhere else and it says made in China (most), I'm probably supporting child labor. I'm skipping the retailer charging $12 for the same thing I get for $1.88. What kind of country do I live in where I'm not allowed to dress cheap but well to go to work? What the absolute f*?

I walk to work, so I don't want to subsidize your commute or travel by roads, and I don't fly often so I'd rather not subsidize the FAA as well.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#348

Post by CodeWriter23 »

krona wrote: post #323
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please illustrate one example of how someone (not the Fed firing up the presses) can make money without someone else giving them money.

I didn't mention money. You don't need to have read The Wealth of Nations to know that it's possible to increase the GDP of a country without decreasing the overall savings. Service driven economies are the best example of this.

And those services exist without any exchange of money?

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#349

Post by romwell »

oicu812 wrote: post #345
jayd16 wrote: post #77

Do people in this thread realize the USPS is almost entirely self funded? I see a lot of talk about tax dollars etc. The USPS doesn't work that way.

Almost entirely... except for the $100 million in tax dollars per year they receive to subsidize blind and overseas citizens. They also get $18 billion per year in tax benefits. NOT self-funded, never will be. https://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/jul/24/am... http://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/

I'm sorry, but $100M subsidy for the blind is a drop in the bucket for a nation of 300 million -- and I call BS on the rest of the `benefits`.

Let's break down your sources.

The first one simply observes that the USPS holds a debt to the US government. OK. I owe money to Citibank - does it mean that Citibank funded my degree? No.

The second source lists three factors it considers to be `benefits`:

- Tax breaks and Cheap borrowing. Color me surprised that a government-owned entity isn't expected to pay back to the government. It's a subsidy in the same way that every pirated MP3 is a `loss`: the assumption here is that every buck made by USPS could be potentially made by a private company, which would pay taxes on that. This is a claim that I would rate as wild imagination without very strong evidence, given that any system to fill USPS's shoes would have to perform the duty of delivering mail to (nearly) every resident.

- Laws that bar any other shipping service from delivering mail and packages directly to residential and business mailboxes. Well, USPS can't deliver directly into the Amazon's fulfillment center cells either. That aside, again, it's highly unclear how you can translate that to cost to the taxpayers - even if it means profits for USPS.

That is because not every taxpayer is paying anything to USPS.

Official monopolies are a tricky thing - but nobody is screaming about how utilities and telecommunication companies, which enjoy these monopolies, are not self-funded.

They say that a rose by any other name is still a rose. By the same measure, a cactus, even though prickly, isn't one -- even if you call it a rose and write a long article about it.

Re: US Announces Withdraw From Postal Treaty

#350

Post by thatcat »

ed_balls wrote: post #279
GlobalFrog wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the theory. I might be pessimistic, but it looks to me that everyone claims that one want that even playing field and at the same time, hides as much subsidies as possible to be able to protect ones own industries. Europe is heavily subsidizing its agriculture. The US are heavily subsidizing anything that has a link to anything military and oil. And others are doing the same. True, a few markets have been fre…

> Europe is heavily subsidizing its agriculture USA as well, but there is a good reason for it. It's a strategic. You are 9 meals away from a revolution. Other subsidies are for strategic purposes. There are always a few abuses which you hear in the news, but the logic is sound.

That isn't why ag is subsidized. Ya know how all your gas has 10% EtOH? That's from corn subsidy.
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