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Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

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Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But where do we draw a bright line? It's an evolving conversation. There is no line to be drawn. We learn, we codify, we move on. Let's stick to applicable conversations, shall we?

> Let's stick to applicable conversations, shall we? Unless you a have a principle that everyone agrees on over what is 'applicable' and what isn't, that veers pretty close to begging the question - conversations that support your point are declared 'applicable', while ones that bring up difficult questions to your point of view get dismissed as off-topic. Getting back to the original topic, if you're saying that "em…

>conversations that support your point are declared 'applicable',

But that's not what's happening.

>the difficult question is "what about employees whose political views are repugnant to you?

Why is this a question? What part of any statement that I made lead to the implication that only a certain subset of employee's should be heard from?

>The example of the cake bakery is easy to dismiss because it seems covered by existing law

It's not only easily dismissable if the conversation called for it, it's actually just irrelevant to the current situation. They touch on two completely different subjects and contexts. A company targeting specific individuals on an ad-hoc basis has no bearing on a company empowering a government with its product. You have to strip both situations down to "employee has opinion, will business listen?" for the current conversation to make any sense. I'd say that'd be absurd to do but I guess that's what we're actually doing.

>if a medical device company's employees are religious, should they force it to not sell to abortion providers?

There is an appreciable difference between a company taking its employee's views and wishes into consideration and obeying laws. There is no law stating that Amazon has to sell this technology. It'd be hard to make such a law, for a whole host of reasons. I'd be happy to expand on such reasons since we're going to start having a civics conversation at any point now.

These kind of analogies, again, are fundamentally mistaken. Because they confuse different issues, different subjects, and different contexts. It's a bad abstraction.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#272

This argument conflates a number of issues and frankly loses steam on that basis. The running list of demands so far: Don’t sell facial recognition, don’t work with the government, kick a paying customer off of your system because of who they provide services to and while we are at it you shouldn’t be working with anyone I don’t like. Is that it? For now, but check back with me cause I might want to add greedy invest…

Demands like this consequently further authoritarianism based on the belief "As , we believe we hold a superior moral/ethical high ground, and should therefore be responsible for the decision-making that impacts the masses."

Identifying as being on the "correct side" pushes an agenda of inequality and gatekeeping out of confirmation bias (which, in theory, this group stands against given the current political discussions surrounding such issues).

If the point of revoking services and kicking customers out of their walled garden is to combat the villain of the moment and make them suffer, that is sure to have unintended negative consequences as well. The terms of this letter are looking through a lens blanketing entities as good or bad, when in reality it isn't as clear cut. Such mechanism also seems rife for abuse.

People also love to knock the government because it's easy to do, but they forget we are also responsible for the government by choosing to live in a democracy. Times change, societies change, laws change. Sure, at times it seems nothing changes and things stay shitty, but with that attitude there's nearly a guarantee that will stay true. People can talk the talk to their heart's content, but it's far easier to wish than to do.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#273

It's a little backwards. You're not actually making the military more lethal by selling them facial recognition tech. You are making them more accurate. Right now, an 18-25 year old looks at a (often) blurry video and tries to say if something is a weapon. With visual recognition technology, you actually decrease the false positives. Same with police. You're reducing the false positives inherent with human interventi…

While ideally that may be the case machine learning is infamous for its false positives even without malicious actors causing toy turtles to be seen as rifles. Even if it has advanced enough to not see desert landscape photos as nudity.

Relying on inaccurate information is more dangerous not less. Not to mention the potential pretextual abuses - drug sniffing dogs are infamous for being trained to be four legged probable cause and field drug tests are a sick joke that makes a mockery of chemistry akin to declaring anything with a PH below 5 is an explosive because picric acid is an explosive.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#274
post #63

What happens when they combine this with image enhancement powered by deep learning?

Legally, not much, machine learning image enhancement is essentially probabilistically guessing the inbetween pixels of an image, if you use it for actual work and not art you're just asking to have your evidence thrown out of court and run into the same misrecognition problems humans face.

I agree it seems absurd on the face of it (forgive me), but with enhancement techniques going mainstream elsewhere, I could see it happening with surveillance applications. Sure, the false positive rate will go up, but it might help generate legitimate matches that otherwise crack cases even if the recognition footage itself can't be relied upon in an evidentiary capacity.

Speaking of, Pixel 3's new enhancement feature[0] is now mainstream. If these end up mistaken for originals, it opens up an evidentiary Pandora's box. Then again, much poorer quality image enhancement has been around forever now (e.g. "digital zoom").

[0] https://ai.googleblog.com/2018/10/see-better-and-further-wit...

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#275
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people have been separated from their children should just wait for the American people to maaaaaaybe kick out the jackboots in two to four years? Naw, dawg, when things get ugly, you have to resist where you can. I'm guessing you can't agree, but there's a fair number of people who think we're in a Germany 1937 situation. We have a president who in all likelihood enlisted Russian interference in the election, who…

Those people were caught committing a crime. And it's not the kind of crime one could commit by mistake, they were entering a country illegally.

> Those people were caught committing a crime.

Speeding tickets are also people who were caught committing a crime.

Regardless, it is a new policy to put Adults who cross with children (even though many of these Adults are the parents of those children) into jail.

I for one, believe that there are more humane ways to treat boarder-crossers who are crossing with their family. Sure, maybe put the lone crossers into jail, but if they're coming over with kids, then I'd hope that the judges / immigration agents / etc. etc. have power to show compassion in those cases.

So yeah, put some of them in jail, and put others into other forms of detention that don't necessarily involve separating kids from their parents. And yes, I recognize that Coyotes exist (professional illegal boarder crossers who specialize in trafficking children into America), so I recognize that ICE has a hard job here. But a repeat-offender like a Coyote could be caught on the 2nd or 3rd attempt. I recognize that ICE needs a plan to deal with Coyotes appropriately, and that not every adult-with-children is necessarily the parent.

There's a lot of ways to deal with the problem, and its sad that the current administration thinks that separating families is the best way forward.

If separations are to happen, I want it to happen only to Coyotes and the children they're smuggling. We need to be careful to keep the real parents together with their real children.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing unethical about being a hero. You should try it sometime.

Unless I misunderstood losteric, it sounds like all the names of people on a mailing list were automatically added as “signatures” to this letter even if they didn’t agree with the letter contents. That sounds pretty unethical.

I'm sure some agree, but yes the list never saw the complaints or demands.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#277
post #129
post #72

> Regardless of our views on the military, no one should be profiting from “increasing the lethality” of the military. It makes no sense for these two clauses to exist together. If you do not believe that people should profit from increasing the lethality of the military, then you do not believe in the utility of having a military. Especially when the author follows up with this sentence: > We will not silently build…

No, I believe the military should exist but shouldn’t be too good at its job. If the US president knows that 3,000 American soldiers will die doing something, it will make the calculus of doing it very different than if only 3 soldiers would die. This may actually save lives overallx

That's a REALLY bad idea. Shooting yourself in the foot is a perfect analogy here.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ICE was the result of 9/11 hysteria, it's a government organization whose duties were already being done elsewhere. I don't think people realize it was only formed in 2003...

I don't see what it being formed in 2003 has to do with anything. What exactly is being advocated in abolishing ICE when you bring up that another agency was doing its duties? Are you saying that other agency can take over those duties again? Most of the abolish ICE crowd just wants to get rid of ICE and ICE's duties. I don't think they want the CBP doing roughly the same thing ICE is doing. They'll just demand we ab…

ICE has a history of horrible treatment of detainees, it abuses its authority and I find it strange that small government conservatives love it the most.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the shareholders via a board of directors and CEO?

OK, invite the shareholders to Seattle to sit down and start working on AWS.

We're busy. But we're willing to pay people to go to Seattle and do it.

Re: Amazon Employee: We Shouldn’t Sell Facial Recognition Tech to Police

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We codify against pointless discrimination against protected classes of people for a reason. Some things are no longer worth debating and serve no purpose but to actively harm people. So no, they shouldn't be allowed to do that. But where do we draw a bright line? Sure, maybe we want religious people baking cakes for gay weddings. But should Muslim bakers be forced to draw likenesses of the Prophet Muhammad if a cus…

>But where do we draw a bright line? It's an evolving conversation. There is no line to be drawn. We learn, we codify, we move on. Let's stick to applicable conversations, shall we?

>Let's stick to applicable conversations, shall we?

That's functionally the same question as the one I'm posing. Who interprets? Who decides?

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