they use their feelings instead of brains.
for example charity does harm in the long run as communities can't be self sufficient.
Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
11–20 of 149 posts
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#12This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
And then there's King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
Sometimes you need to make waves in order to advance a cause.
Now that doesn't mean you should be uncivil (like screaming "you fucking moron!"), but it can be a fine line to walk. So it's understandable that tone policing itself can become a controversial topic.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#13I feel weirdly (perhaps irrationally) about the effective altruism people including 80,000 hours. I just can't shake the cult-y vibes they give off. Am I alone in this?
In short, no. I don't know how to put it in long.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#14This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
> People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation.
Absolutely nailed it. If you're unpleasant/uncivilised to deal with then the content of your argument becomes irrelevant because a decent portion - and perhaps even the majority - of people won't want to have anything to do with you.
Being obnoxious is another class of communication where good content is masked by bad delivery, the same as if you fail to communicate and explain your point clearly: again, the message gets lost. People switch off and disengage.
Good manners really do oil the wheels of communication on difficult and contentious topics even if it means the process takes longer than you'd like.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#15This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
Tone policing is to do with (objecting to) not what they say, but how they say it, so I think what you give aren't examples of it at all. What you say about behaviour makes sense, but I don't think you read the wikipedia link to learn what tone policing actually is, as you're complaining about something else entirely.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
And then there's King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.... Sometimes you need to make waves in order to advance a cause. Now that doesn't mean you should be uncivil (like screaming "you fucking moron!"), but it can be a fine line to walk. So it's understandable that tone policing itself can become a controversial topic.
It's proportionate to the cause.
If we're talking about the Jim Crow south, that's one thing. King even wrote a whole essay about how white moderates 'tone policing' the civil rights movement needed to get on board or get out of the way. And he was right. Emmett Till's lynching had just happened, they were being categorically denied rights, and then getting fucking attack dogs unleashed on them, churches firebombed, etc, when they spoke up.
Some of the noisier people on twitter and in our workspaces in 2018, however... their net effect is giving talking points to Sean Hannity. At least 80% of America is turned off by their rhetorical excess.
King's body of work was productive. He was after results, not after feeding his own ego or outrage.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#17I feel weirdly (perhaps irrationally) about the effective altruism people including 80,000 hours. I just can't shake the cult-y vibes they give off. Am I alone in this?
I was a little skeptical at first as well but I initially got involved when doing a career quiz and then by helping out with the Estonian chapter of Effective Altruism and I'll say that at least on an individual basis they're quite open to other thoughts and opinions and acknowledge that what they believe doesn't necessarily follow for everyone (ex. the idea that you can 'earn to give' - it only works if you have the personality type where you can do a job such as Ibanking and can satisfy your need to do good by giving and not actively participating as much)
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#18the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#19This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
How many pro-choice people do
you think are persuaded by
If you can't explain your
argument in a calm, rational
manner,
What screaming (or the university equivalent: bad grades) achieves is not so much conviction, but communicating urgency. How to react to urgency a different matter.
A second social function of screaming (re-)producing simple us/them group identities.
Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…
How many pro-choice people do you think are persuaded by Symmetrically, how many pro-life people do you think are persuaded by the people screaming "woman-hater/sexist/misogynist" outside of Planned Parenthood? If you can't explain your argument in a calm, rational manner, You overestimate the efficacy of explaining in a calm, rational manner. As a university teacher with > 10 years experience, I can tell you with ex…
people often don't do what's best for them. But that's a separate issue from trying to convince someone to join your cause. If you're representing advocacy group X and you're being melodramatic and throwing a tantrum, rather than pinpointing the issues you want to solve and proposing solutions, I'm much more likely to think that said group is composed of adult babies making childish complaints and unworthy of respect or attention. You'd be essentially leaving it to me to independently discover if there is any value in the group, rather than taking the opportunity to inform me yourself.