Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible • Hacker News Board

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#121

Post by GolDDranks » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:21 AM UTC

This is interesting to me, not because of the musical implications but because of the neurobiological ones – and especially with regards of learning accents / pronunciation of second languages.

There has been a lot of studies that have tried to teach recognizing the audible difference of R and L to Japanese English learners. I don't know of a single study has been able to produce robust results. (There's a primary and secondary acoustic cues to the difference; some Japanese have had success recognizing the difference using secondary acoustic cues, but recognizing the primary cue which is the most robust one and which the natives use preferentially escapes treatment.)

However, the testing protocols and time are limited, and we have increasingly knowledge about adult neuroplasticity. Results like this keep me hopeful that it's just that we don't know the good way to do that yet and we might see some results in the future.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#122

Post by coliveira » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

vnorilo wrote: post #120

I've studied cello from age 5 to conservatory degree; the pitches of the open strings are burned in my memory. I can also often tell which key an orchestra plays by timbral cues. However, I do not have "real" perfect pitch, although the topic study might find that I do. True perfect pitch is like the anecdotes in the thread: discomfort with "wrong" transpositions or tunings, learning melodies by real rather than rela…

I understand your point, but who knows if these things aren't really the same? My opinion is that having the notes "burned" in your memory is a lesser degree of the same phenomenon. People that are considered to have "real" perfect pitch just developed these abilities beyond what normal musicians like you did. And doing this at a very young age really helps a lot, in the same way that leaning new languages in infancy is a painless activity and quite difficult at adult age.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#123

Post by coliveira » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:25 AM UTC

mikorym wrote: post #119

Musician here with terrible pitch guessing ability (but semi-decent composition skillz and good harmony sense). I have always found absolute (or "perfect" pitch) to be misinterpreted in popular culture. I have not actually met a musician with perfect pitch. However, perhaps my definition is too narrow. Would a person with perfect pitch be able to tell the difference between 440 Hz A and 432 Hz A? Would they be able t…

If you have very well developed perfect pitch, you can sense the difference just in the same way that you can feel that two strings are out of tune by a few Hz. That's why some people with perfect pitch like Mozart get annoyed by out of tune instruments.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#124

Post by econnor » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:44 AM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #58

psychometry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is analogous to a colorblind person telling everyone how overrated red and green are. First, someone with "untrained" AP (I assume you mean no musical training) wouldn't be in a position where they'd be needing to transcribe a Bach chorale, would they? Any AP possessor with musical training--I am one--finds transcription trivially easy since there's only rhythm to figure out. While it can be momentarily…

I'm colorblind, and I think red and green are kind of overrated :). I didn't even know I was colorblind until I took a test at age 11. The extent which it has impacted my life negatively is absolutely negligible. Granted, it's not as though red and green don't exist to me. Some shades are just ambiguously red or green. I'm not sure, but I think I tend toward absolute pitch. Individual notes out of context often make…

This triggers some thoughts that I haven't quite joined up yet.

Likewise, some reds and some greens are interchangeable to me.

I imagine the different colouring of intervals that you hear in different keys is due to tempering. I don't have anything close to AP, but I tell chord progression in C# from the same in C. But purple is pretty much just a shade of blue to me.

I studied Indian classical music for quite a few years, which involved a lot of listening to and repeating phrases. I was fine with the longer stuff, but eventually found out I had some sort of deficit with interval recognition and struggled with replicating standalone 2 note phrases.

I have good harmony and rhythm instincts in practice, but am almost 'dyslexic' when trying to describe them formally.

I'm slightly wondering if this collection of deficits and compensatory mechanisms is what has led me to a fascination with flamenco. (Albeit with a little frustration at some of the more puritanical traditionalism.)

Also, Miles rules.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#125

Post by khazhou » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 7:41 AM UTC

SeanLuke wrote: post #4

More interesting to me is the fact that many people with absolute pitch start to lose it in their 40s and 50s. This has happened to me too. What happens is that your pitch assessment often starts going sharp, so what you thought was a C was actually a B, say. For me the pitch assessment accuracy differs depending on the harmonic content of the sound: guitars and harmonicas are awful, but pianos and flutes etc. seem t…

I had a nasty sinus infection a few years ago that took weeks to clear up. My ears were stuffed up and it made hearing difficult for a while. After it cleared up, my left ear was tuned about a quarter-tone sharp, and only above a certain frequency (about middle C). It was the damndest thing.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#126

Post by mhh__ » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #87

Bud wrote: post #77

Professional classical singer here. I'm personally glad that I don't have absolute pitch, or at least not any version that is mostly focused on A=440 Hz, because as an early-music performer, I regularly have to sing at A=415 (for Bach and other Baroque composers), A=430 (for Mozart on classical-period instruments), A=440, and even A=465 (for Monteverdi) at times. And occasionally at other pitches. And with varying te…

It's my understanding that perfect pitch can be tuned, and also trained to deal with microtonal harmonies, etc. I don't think it is a straight jacket. Jacob Collier, I think(?), has perfect pitch, but going outside of western harmony is his schtick. I think it's more like learning new words as an adult rather than a cage. But, maybe I'm wrong? I've heard anecdotally of people with perfect pitch complaining about some…

Jacob Colliers perfect pitch is apparently (if his tricks on stream are to be believed) accurate to a few cents

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#127

Post by mockingbirdy » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 8:05 AM UTC

eigenstuff wrote: post #100

beat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two musicians I've played with who have perfect pitch, and I've seen it fail for both. One is an older man, whose legendary perfect pitch started to fail in his early 60s (not much later came the onset of early dementia, so...). The other is a bandmate of mine, a woman in her late 20s/early 30s when i saw hers fail. She's genetically predisposed - both her father and her brother have perfect pitch; plus her fa…

Late 20s woman, started playing violin when I was 4, genetically predisposed. I had that SAME moment of shock and panic when I practiced with my sister before we played for my cousin's wedding a year ago. It was wild, the best way I can describe it is my ear has flattened out to baroque tuning down from modern 440 turning. I don't like it! I'm losing my best party trick to age but oh well, I don't think anybody's rea…

Is this consistent?

You could correct your perception using this knowledge then. Just add the half step. As long as the measurement device is still working, you can always re-calibrate (in this case cognitively) the base.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#128

Post by vnorilo » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 8:05 AM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #122

vnorilo wrote: post #120

I've studied cello from age 5 to conservatory degree; the pitches of the open strings are burned in my memory. I can also often tell which key an orchestra plays by timbral cues. However, I do not have "real" perfect pitch, although the topic study might find that I do. True perfect pitch is like the anecdotes in the thread: discomfort with "wrong" transpositions or tunings, learning melodies by real rather than rela…

I understand your point, but who knows if these things aren't really the same? My opinion is that having the notes "burned" in your memory is a lesser degree of the same phenomenon. People that are considered to have "real" perfect pitch just developed these abilities beyond what normal musicians like you did. And doing this at a very young age really helps a lot, in the same way that leaning new languages in infancy…

Yeah - I guess the early acquisition might be what influences the way these kids develop different cognitive strategies for music early on. It's obvious when teaching kids: the median student seems to operate on the first order derivative of the pitch curve, while the perfect pitch kids operate with the absolute values. A gross simplification. Interestingly, many of them require a different strategy for transposing melodies: go note by note, while median learners apply melodic intervals incrementally. Similar differences can be seen in solfege and dictation.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#129

Post by acjohnson55 » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 8:07 AM UTC

econnor wrote: post #124

acjohnson55 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm colorblind, and I think red and green are kind of overrated :). I didn't even know I was colorblind until I took a test at age 11. The extent which it has impacted my life negatively is absolutely negligible. Granted, it's not as though red and green don't exist to me. Some shades are just ambiguously red or green. I'm not sure, but I think I tend toward absolute pitch. Individual notes out of context often make…

This triggers some thoughts that I haven't quite joined up yet. Likewise, some reds and some greens are interchangeable to me. I imagine the different colouring of intervals that you hear in different keys is due to tempering. I don't have anything close to AP, but I tell chord progression in C# from the same in C. But purple is pretty much just a shade of blue to me. I studied Indian classical music for quite a few…

I don't think it's tempering, since I did most of my ear training on piano.

Yet, most purples are really close to blue to me, unless they're basically pink.

Re: Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible

#130

Post by Hoasi » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 8:26 AM UTC

dfan wrote: post #32

SeanLuke wrote: post #4

More interesting to me is the fact that many people with absolute pitch start to lose it in their 40s and 50s. This has happened to me too. What happens is that your pitch assessment often starts going sharp, so what you thought was a C was actually a B, say. For me the pitch assessment accuracy differs depending on the harmonic content of the sound: guitars and harmonicas are awful, but pianos and flutes etc. seem t…

My pitch started to drift in middle age too. Like you, I do better or worse based on timbre; piano is great (it's my instrument, which must help), stringed instruments are pretty good in general, wind instruments are not so great, organs are the worst. Playing for ten years in a Balinese gamelan that was not remotely tuned to a Western scale probably didn't help. Absolute pitch is still a really useful skill to have,…

> Absolute pitch is still a really useful skill to have, in my opinion, and I don't understand it when people say it's just a parlor trick or actually diminishes your ability to appreciate music; being able to spell doesn't diminish my appreciation of language.

True, it is just like saying: being able to name colors diminishes your ability to appreciate colors. That would be a ridiculous statement. However, having absolute pitch does make some music more predictable, I think it affected my taste in music.