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Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

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Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#61
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're most likely right, but there is at least one caveat which might be able to help if we're lucky. (I'm a fluid dynamicist, though not an aerodynamicist.) The Reynolds number is only part of the picture. You also need a measure of the strength of the turbulence. A common measure is the "turbulence intensity", which you can think of as the standard deviation of the velocity divided by the mean of the velocity. (Th…

I agree with the importance of the freestream turbulence intensity, but at high Re numbers, it's extremely hard to control it. It can be shown mathematically, using a technique called parabolized stability equations (PSE), that small disturbances amplify rapidly thorough non-linear interactions in the frequency space. Hence, although it's possible to create a laminar flow at high Re number in the lab, it's extremely…

Thanks for the interesting example. You're right that this is unlikely to redeem a scaled up dandelion, but I thought it was still worth mentioning as it's often overlooked.

I work in internal and multiphase flows, and changing the turbulence level is much easier there than in aerodynamics.

I'll also have to look at the parabolized stability equations as I am not familiar with them. If you have a preferred reference, I'd be interested.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#62
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we re-discovering nature as a big not-artificial intelligence? like that big entity someone will start to respect, venerate and serve as a mythical goddess?

A syncretization of technology and scientific thought, hearkening back to our more animistic tendencies, sounds both poetic and plausible.

I don't think worship is an "animistic" quality. I think the tendency to worship is very much a refined trait in highly intelligent organisms.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#63

Perhaps ignorance on my part, but: why do they require highspeed cameras and laser illumination to figure this out in 2018? Shouldn't physics by able to model such a relatively simply structure and how air would move through and around it?

Fluid dynamics is hard and a simulation can only work with the inputs and parameters you set it up with.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#64
If you find this interesting I highly recommend you to look at some vape-trick videos. Smoke/steam is great at visualizing vortices, and it's absolutely astonishing how much aerodynamically control some people can achieve.

Creating lots of small vortices in rapid succession, merging vortices, splitting vortices, letting vortices "suck in" other vortices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmv228G8R4o&time_continue=1m

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#65
post #37

The result of natural/evolutionary selection? Would be interesting to know if there are different types of dandelions (I mean the part used to "fly") used by the same type of seed, each type adapted/optimized for a particular climate (e.g. humid for asian areas, dry for african areas, windy for coastal areas, ...).

The criteria for adaptive evolution, in the classical Darwinian sense, are:

1). Reproduction. 2). Variation between the products of reproduction. 3). Heritability between those variants. 4). Differential success among the variants.

Anything that has those four characteristics will experience adaptive evolution. Where it gets really fascinating is when you realize it applies to things that don't go through biological reproduction, for example the graphical user interface.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#66
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're different ways to describe the same phenomenon. Well ... they're actually different ways to incorrectly describe the same phenomenon. Wind tunnels are still used for aircraft design because we can't accurately model aerodynamics.

Please clarify what you mean by ‘accurately’ ... without reducing this discussion to a coarse dichotomy between ‘accurate’ or ‘not accurate’ —- which would miss a main point of what models do and why they are useful. My very rough understanding is that computer simulations of air flow are sufficently accurate for a high percentage of predictions for many kinds of objects. Fair? If not, under what cases does their acc…

Fluid dynamicist here.

Short version: Scale models (like wind tunnels) are useful because the most accurate simulations are extremely computationally expensive or computationally intractable, and the faster less accurate simulations are often so inaccurate that they are untrustworthy. Scale models are not 100% trustworthy themselves, and to construct and use them you need to understand similarity theory.

Long version:

The general field is called computational fluid dynamics (CFD for short). There are broadly two types of turbulent computer simulations of flows: DNS and not-DNS.

DNS stands for direct numerical simulation. These simulations are very accurate, and sometimes are regarded as more trustworthy than experiments because in a particular experiment you may not be able to set a variable precisely, but you can always set variables precisely in a simulation.

Howver, in DNS you need to resolve all scales of the flow. Often this includes the "Kolmogorov scale" where turbulent dissipation occurs. It could also include even smaller scales like those involved in multiphase flows or combustion. This is so extremely computationally expensive that it's impractical (in terms of something you could run on a daily basis and iterate on) for anything but toy problems like "homogeneous isotropic turbulence". In terms of real world problems, DNS is limited to fairly simple geometries like pipe flows. Those simulations will take weeks on the most powerful supercomputers today. It's very rare for someone to attempt a DNS of a flow with a more complex geometry, and I'd argue that such works are mostly a waste of resources. Here's an interesting perspective on that: https://wjrider.wordpress.com/2015/12/25/the-unfortunate-myt...

"Not-DNS" includes a variety of "turbulence modeling" approaches which basically try to reduce the computational cost to something more manageable. This can reduce the cost to hours or days on a single computer or cluster. The two most popular turbulence modeling approaches are called RANS and LES.

Instead of solving the Navier-Stokes equations as is done in DNS, modified versions of the Navier-Stokes equations are solved. If you time average the equations instead, you'll get the Reynolds averaged Navier-Stokes (RANS) equations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds-averaged_Navier%E2%80...

These equations are "unclosed" in the sense that they contain more unknowns than equations. In principle, you could write a new equation for the unclosed term (which is called the Reynolds stress in the RANS equations), but you'll end up with even more unclosed terms. So, the unclosed terms are instead modeled.

RANS is older, computationally cheaper, and usually computes the quantity that you want (e.g., a time averaged quantity). LES is newer, and has better justification in theory (e.g., good LES models converge to DNS if you make the grid finer, but RANS will not), but it often doesn't compute precisely what you want and the specifics of the LES models are often specified in inconsistent ways. My experience is that people tend to ignore the problems with LES or be ignorant of them. (Though I do believe LES is more trustworthy.)

The problem is that modeling turbulence has proved to be rather difficult, and none of these models work particularly well. Some are better than others, but the more accurate ones typically are more computationally expensive. Personally, I don't trust any turbulence model outside of its calibration data.

Some people lately have proposed that machine learning could construct a particularly accurate turbulence model, but that seems unlikely to me. People said that same things about chaos theory and other buzzwords in the past, but we're still waiting. Many turbulence models are fitted to a lot of data, and they're still not particularly credible. Also, machine learning doesn't take into account the governing equations. Methods which are similar to machine learning but do take into account the governing equations are typically called "model order reduction". If you want to do machine learning for turbulence, you actually should do model order reduction for turbulence. Otherwise, you're missing a big source of data: the governing equations themselves. (I could write more on this topic, in particular about constraints you'd want the model to fit which machine learning doesn't necessarily satisfy.)

Anyhow, scale models are basically treating the world as a computer. Often testing at full scale is too expensive, particularly if you want to iterate. "Similarity theory" gives a theoretical basis to scale models, so that you know how to convert between the model and reality.

One of the most important results in similarity theory is the Buckingham Pi Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckingham_%CF%80_theorem

This theorem shows that two systems governed by the same physics are "similar" if they have the same dimensionless variables, even if the physical variables differ greatly.

If any of this is confusing, I'd be happy to answer further questions.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#67
> Previous studies have found that dandelion seeds always have between 90 and 110 bristles, says Nakayama

Those poor research assistants. Imagine counting hundreds of dandelion bristles every day. Probably still not possible with AI/image recognition either.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#68

> Previous studies have found that dandelion seeds always have between 90 and 110 bristles, says Nakayama Those poor research assistants. Imagine counting hundreds of dandelion bristles every day. Probably still not possible with AI/image recognition either.

[deleted]

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#69
post #3

That was a lovely little diversion! There’s a brief 1 minute clip in the article that’s worth watching. I do have one question though, how is the air flowing up through? It the seed not falling for that to happen?

Wind can create upward movements of air near the ground.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#70

> Previous studies have found that dandelion seeds always have between 90 and 110 bristles, says Nakayama Those poor research assistants. Imagine counting hundreds of dandelion bristles every day. Probably still not possible with AI/image recognition either.

That would 100% be possible with image recognition. Segment using UNet, then measure the remaining joined pixels.

(Well thanks for the downvotes. I do this as my job, so I guess I'm doing the impossible or something)

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