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Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

nature.com

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Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#41
post #28

Wow, new parachute designs may be possible then! They will look scary, but can be more effective.

Probably not! This phenomenon is not scale-independent. There is a parameter called the Reynolds number (Re for short) which is the ratio of intertial forces to viscous forces. For a dandelion seed Re is small which is the key to the stability of the vortex. For a parachute, the Re number is much higher which makes the dynamics of the flow chaotic (called turbulence). There is a critical Re number beyond which There…

You're most likely right, but there is at least one caveat which might be able to help if we're lucky. (I'm a fluid dynamicist, though not an aerodynamicist.)

The Reynolds number is only part of the picture. You also need a measure of the strength of the turbulence. A common measure is the "turbulence intensity", which you can think of as the standard deviation of the velocity divided by the mean of the velocity. (Though that's only exactly true in "isotropic turbulence".)

In certain circumstances you can compensate for a higher Reynolds number with a lower turbulence intensity. The bristles of the dandelion may have a turbulence reduction ability, so perhaps this is already being done. I'm not certain how to reduce the turbulence level further as in this case it's mostly an ambient property which is beyond the control of the dandelion. Some sort of honeycomb structure upstream of the bristles might help, or it might hurt; it depends on the details.

Here are some examples:

Pipe flow can remain laminar for higher Reynolds numbers if the turbulence intensity is low enough. Though special turbulence control approaches (e.g., eliminating vibrations which could trigger transition to turbulence) laminar pipe flows have been observed at a Reynolds numbers of about 100000, about 50 times higher than the typical Reynolds number where laminar flow ends.

Here's a quote from a review article:

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-fluid-...

> The impression gained from presenting data in this way is that there is a transition between two definable states. One is the relatively rare but well-defined state of motion, laminar flow, and the other is the more common and ill-defined state of turbulence. Experimental evidence suggests that the laminar state can be achieved in pipe flows over a wide range of Re with the record standing at Re = 100,000 by Pfenniger (1961). Reynolds himself managed to achieve Re = 13,000, and Ekman (1911) later improved on this to ∼50,000 using Reynolds’ original apparatus. [...] Achieving laminar flows at high values of Re is an indication of the quality of an experimental facility and gives some confidence that the observations will not be contaminated by extraneous background disturbances such as entrance flow effects, convection, and geometrical irregularities.

Matching the turbulence intensity of two wind tunnels is often necessary to make the results comparable between the two wind tunnels. In the first volume of Sidney Goldstein's "Modern Developments in Fluid Dynamics", there's a plot showing (if I recall correctly) the Reynolds number at which the "drag crisis" occurs as a function of turbulence intensity. This basically means that the drag coefficient can be very sensitive to the turbulence intensity, at least in special circumstances.

(Why I wrote this: In my dissertation, I have an entire section about how turbulence intensity is too frequently neglected in analyses, particularly for the problem I'm studying for my PhD.)

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#42
> Never Before Seen in Nature

> Many insects harbour such filter-like structures on their wings or legs, suggesting that the use of detached vortices for flight or swimming might be relatively common

I sense a bit of disconnect between the article and the headline.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not! This phenomenon is not scale-independent. There is a parameter called the Reynolds number (Re for short) which is the ratio of intertial forces to viscous forces. For a dandelion seed Re is small which is the key to the stability of the vortex. For a parachute, the Re number is much higher which makes the dynamics of the flow chaotic (called turbulence). There is a critical Re number beyond which There…

You're most likely right, but there is at least one caveat which might be able to help if we're lucky. (I'm a fluid dynamicist, though not an aerodynamicist.) The Reynolds number is only part of the picture. You also need a measure of the strength of the turbulence. A common measure is the "turbulence intensity", which you can think of as the standard deviation of the velocity divided by the mean of the velocity. (Th…

That was super interesting. Thank you for commenting!

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#44
post #39

It's like nature's had millions of years to crunch through its own AI / machine learning of evolution and adaptation, and we're about to unleash the same thing on an impossibly faster scale. Imagine the technological breakthroughs that are going to happen. I'm optimistic.

Are we re-discovering nature as a big not-artificial intelligence? like that big entity someone will start to respect, venerate and serve as a mythical goddess?

A syncretization of technology and scientific thought, hearkening back to our more animistic tendencies, sounds both poetic and plausible.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#46
post #42

> Never Before Seen in Nature > Many insects harbour such filter-like structures on their wings or legs, suggesting that the use of detached vortices for flight or swimming might be relatively common I sense a bit of disconnect between the article and the headline.

Also:

> When some animals, aeroplanes or seeds fly, rings of circulating air called vortices form in contact with their wings or wing-like surfaces.

> Researchers thought that an unattached vortex would be too unstable to persist in nature.

I guess those animals and seeds aren't natural then?

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#47
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not! This phenomenon is not scale-independent. There is a parameter called the Reynolds number (Re for short) which is the ratio of intertial forces to viscous forces. For a dandelion seed Re is small which is the key to the stability of the vortex. For a parachute, the Re number is much higher which makes the dynamics of the flow chaotic (called turbulence). There is a critical Re number beyond which There…

You're most likely right, but there is at least one caveat which might be able to help if we're lucky. (I'm a fluid dynamicist, though not an aerodynamicist.) The Reynolds number is only part of the picture. You also need a measure of the strength of the turbulence. A common measure is the "turbulence intensity", which you can think of as the standard deviation of the velocity divided by the mean of the velocity. (Th…

I agree with the importance of the freestream turbulence intensity, but at high Re numbers, it's extremely hard to control it.

It can be shown mathematically, using a technique called parabolized stability equations (PSE), that small disturbances amplify rapidly thorough non-linear interactions in the frequency space. Hence, although it's possible to create a laminar flow at high Re number in the lab, it's extremely hard to achieve in nature.

One interesting case of this is the Rutan's Voyager airplane in the 80s. It was designed to have a laminar flow over its wing to reduce drag. It worked quite well until it faced rain drops at some point which messed up the aerdynamics of the wing and caused the airplane to stall. At that point, they had to add vortex generators on the wing to prevent the stall.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#48
Perhaps ignorance on my part, but: why do they require highspeed cameras and laser illumination to figure this out in 2018? Shouldn't physics by able to model such a relatively simply structure and how air would move through and around it?

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#49

""" """ "" ^v^ "" "" ^v^ "" "" ^v^ "" ... low pressure """...""" held by vortex ######### ### dandelion falling """"""""" """ rising air I wonder about the chances of creating this kind of toroidal vortex above a duct for lift. It seems necessary for the air to pass in the same direction as the lift, yet lift is normally created by throwing air in the opposite direction.

Excuse me, I'm going to go launch SyncTerm now and browse some Mystic and SynchroNet boards.

Re: Dandelion Seeds Fly Using ‘Impossible’ Method Never Before Seen in Nature

#50
post #16

Does anybody have a link to a video of the lasers creating small vortices just above the dandelion surface?

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415... https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415... https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415... https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415... https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415...

Thank you. That first video is just mesmerizing.
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