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Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

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41–50 of 340 posts

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#41
xonsh from linux

A shell is an interactive programming environment (like basic) that is the primary interface for communicating with the computer. (remember Commodore BASIC was also how you used the computer)

Linux with auto-login directly into a shell with xonsh as default does exactly this. Go directly into a shell from a PTTY or set up your desktop environment to automatically launch a terminal.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#43

Hear me out here; Apple's Swift Playgrounds on an iPad. I'm involved in an extracurricular thing in Scotland focused on giving kids an environment they can figure out computers. We've seen a lot of different approaches to the problem of "how can we get kids to code", and Swift Playgrounds is consistently where we see youngfolk making the most progress. It gives you a nice, guided framework to get the very basics of p…

To support the "you can get pretty far in playgrounds on an iPad" assertion, one of my coworkers built something like half of a language flash card app on his ipad before he transferred it over to his laptop to finish it. I thought he was nuts doing dev on a tablet, but he said it was actually a really nice dev environment and in some areas it totally outclassed xcode. Swift may not be your favorite language but it is an objectively good modern language compared to a lot of what's out there in industry, and its skills are easily transferable to several other good modern languages that are becoming popular.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#44
please dear lord not BASIC! Those of us who learned to code on 8-bit micros back in the day never used BASIC anyway & ended up writing everything in machine code.

You could use an emulator: the Jupiter Ace for example, which ran Forth (quite a good first language to learn)

I'd suggest Wolfram langauge on the Raspberry Pi, or Squeak Smalltalk

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#46
I’m starting my kids on electronics. LEDs, buttons, breadboards. A bit of soldering. Soon transistors. Reminds me of my “BASIC in the 80s” childhood even though it’s circuits rather than programs.

Kits cost about $2.50 on Aliexpress.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#47
I want to give real-world advice as opposed to some of the more theoretical suggestions (the mention iPads doesn't quite line up with "small cheap computer").

A lot depends on unspecified contextual factors, so I'll just throw a couple ideas at you.

If you have a cache of sub-GHz hardware already lying around, I would recommend Win98 and QuickBASIC 4.5. The ability to hit F5 and immediately get output is excellent for reinforcement learning, and being able to CTRL+Break out of unruly mistakes gone rogue great as well.

After a few months (or only weeks?) of QuickBASIC I would move up to Visual Basic.

To be entirely honest, I stumbled on VB 1.0 while browsing at a library many years ago, threw added it to my CD to take home "for the lulz"... and ended up writing a ton of things in it. I found 2.x-5.x's UI to be unnecessarily full of things I didn't want to know about at the time. It _is_ very Spartan; this may appeal for a very short time.

After the novelty of drawing up terrible UIs has worn off, throw them a curveball in the form of VB 6. They'll have the fascination to chow through the additional UI complexity, and VB 6 occupies the sweet spot of being the last in the pre-.NET series and a good preparation for Visual Studio...

...which will need to be introduced at some point, presumably along with an OS switcharoo from Win98 to Win10. My recommendations for such archaic platforms are not without due consideration; the "total mental model surface area" of Win98+DOS is orders of magnitude smaller as Win10, which may provide a friendlier learning environment than "hi you can play in the rocket capsule but don't do anything that affects the engines underneath or you'll blow us all up and I'll be really mad." The very opposite will be true since it's a "toy" environment, so the kids would be free to kill everything as many times as they wanted/needed (within the limits of your patience ;)), and this will fuel the inspiration to discipline their interest in discovery and learning into something usable.

A microcontroller-based environment does provide some of the kinds of bare-metal experience that using QB on an old PC does, but only if you completely ignore tooling and infrastructure. Unfortunately I have insufficient (...any...) experience so can only really comment on the difficulty of this aspect.

The above reflects (part of) my own history (I unfortunately skipped the bit about VB6, which was why I had so many things in VB1.0. I only ended up learning how I'd even go about finding a copy long after the window it would have been useful had passed, so perhaps I'm a bit biased about it.)

The one thing I'm trying to consider, though, is the thing about total surface area, for want of a better phrase - I can remember struggling to figure out JavaScript using IE 5.5 because I didn't know anything else even existed at the time (in 2003, no internet) and perceiving the existence of and hating the browser sandbox. The devtools REPL makes things so different nowadays but it's undeniable that a browser is a gigantic pseudo-operating system on top of another operating system and most problematically this is viscerally perceptible; it's not seamless at all. There's no sense of true freedom, that you're pushing what you're controlling to its limits. (Incidentally speaking, this has some interesting parallels with the Web's recent transformation into the media format of the day, its adoption of DRM, etc.)

The same is true to some extent with QuickBASIC, and this is why I would recommend using it for a maximum of 6 months, but only allowing someone to use it for that long if they had learning difficulties. I personally believe that my own development was severely impaired by the fact that I had nothing else available when I was younger. I'm only just breaking even in terms of having a mind able to make use of CS first principles, but in all fairness this is predominantly due to my autism and not entirely QuickBASIC's fault ;)

A short, engaging path straight to assembly language might be a good idea. I'm still yet to wrap my head around this particular subject, nearly 20 years on, because I'm still un-learning the very complacent computer science models I unfortunately ingrained when I was very young.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#48
> Like in ye olde computer days when you brought home your Commodore 64 and turned it on you were in basic.

Why not try, you know, a Commodore 64?

https://thec64.com

Hooks up via HDMI, powered by micro USB, and has two USB ports for keyboards and joysticks.

No longer boots straight into BASIC, but scroll to the right and hit enter and you're there.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#50
Power-on-to-basic is gone in the world of more sophisticated hardware and power management. But! You can always alter a homebuilt hardware to boot into the next best thing: DrRacket. Just modify the init scripts to go right into this: https://racket-lang.org/

Grab a copy of "the little schemer" and let them go. And when they're through that, then you can unlock the rest of the computer.

As for the hardware, I have recently been building this kit. It affords a very small, humble laptop from the base parts up. You literally build it up. You can re-open it pretty easily.

https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/

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