Show HN: How to start a business in France • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#11

Post by DreamyCori » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:06 AM UTC

jlengrand wrote: post #6

DreamyCori wrote: post #5

Before considering creating a company in France, check the position of this country in the 'Employment flexibility index 2018' [1]. France has the worst ranking... Before doing this kind of marketing, do the essential updates first and companies will blossom all over the country. [1]: https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Fle...

Maybe the author doesn't have the power to do said updates :). Does a low flexibility index indicate that companies should not be opened in France, or even considered? Your point is totally valid, however I don't see how it invalidates what OP worked on

Reality always comes back to snag you out of delusion. And reality is that France is not attractive. Without core modifications this kind of initiative will be close to useless.

(I'm one of many french engineers who left France to have a decent career)

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#12

Post by daxat_staglatz » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:06 AM UTC

JPLeRouzic wrote: post #3

I am French and I applaud at any initiative to help the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)! 1. But even if my browser is set to English, I see French on https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/ and most of the issues on the Github repository are written in French! What signal do you want to send? 2. As one can find on " https://embauche.beta.gouv.fr/" the employee gets only half of what the…

> the part of the French economy not under the government control (circa 45%)!

That public spending is c. 55% of GDP does not mean that private spending is 45% of GDP, since private + public spending does not equal GDP. Back of the envelope computations put private spending at 265% of GDP [0].

> if she is hired now, there is a good probability that she will have only a little retirement pension in 40 years, even if the law does not change. (probably close to the minimum salary, at least I hope so). So all this considerable amount of money will be wasted in the state and the "sécurité sociale" deep pockets.

It is hard to understand how French people can both have "very low" pensions and then be one of the country that spend the most on pensions as a share of GDP [1], and have retirees richer than working people [2, p5.]

[0] https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-chez-les-economistes-a...

[1] https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm

[2] http://www.cor-retraites.fr/IMG/pdf/doc-4099.pdf

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#13

Post by tripue » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:07 AM UTC

Very cool ! Seeing the french gov having a post on hn is amazing !

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#14

Post by jypepin » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:19 AM UTC

Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays.

This makes it very expensive for an employer to pay their employees well, and explains very well why salaries are so low in France.

Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already.

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#15

Post by oblio » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:21 AM UTC

DreamyCori wrote: post #5

Before considering creating a company in France, check the position of this country in the 'Employment flexibility index 2018' [1]. France has the worst ranking... Before doing this kind of marketing, do the essential updates first and companies will blossom all over the country. [1]: https://en.llri.lt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Employment-Fle...

While I do agree with your opinion about employment in France, that index could also be considered an "Employee abuse index", depending on your perspective.

No severance package - yay for flexibility! I'm not saying you should pay a lot, but 1-2 month's salary after 5 years with the company and 3-6 after 10 years shouldn't kill the company and should provide a respite for the just-fired loyal employee. By the way, in your index the country would get a 100/100 when it has no severance package.

No extra payment for overtime - again, this seems like abuse. This would be 100/100 in your index but I don't really see how it can be justified. Same with the time restrictions for overtime.

Paid annual leave - ...

It's one thing to be overbearing and another to offer decent social support to employees (I find France overbearing).

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#16

Post by realusername » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:21 AM UTC

jypepin wrote: post #14

Looking at the cost of hiring, it's crazy to see that the employee only gets ~50% (or even less as the salary grows) than what the employer pays. This makes it very expensive for an employer to pay their employees well, and explains very well why salaries are so low in France. Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible…

That's because in France you get indirect salary as well whereas in other countries you have to pay some of those things from the indirect salary from your own pocket. To compare to a US salary, I would personally add 30 to 40% to those raw figures to reflect external costs.

> Something else to note is also employment laws, which are way more strict in France and makes it either extremely expansive or just impossible to fire someone, the cost of hiring seems to be way too high for startups, which are business why high risks already.

No it's not, first there's the trial period for permanent employees where you can fire at will and then once it's over, you can still do it but you need to motivate your decision & respect the process.

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#17

Post by jlengrand » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:32 AM UTC

DreamyCori wrote: post #11

jlengrand wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the author doesn't have the power to do said updates :). Does a low flexibility index indicate that companies should not be opened in France, or even considered? Your point is totally valid, however I don't see how it invalidates what OP worked on

Reality always comes back to snag you out of delusion. And reality is that France is not attractive. Without core modifications this kind of initiative will be close to useless. (I'm one of many french engineers who left France to have a decent career)

Same here. I left because France is not attractive indeed. And I also agree core changes are needed to make France attractive for entrepreneurs.

At the same time, the points that OP makes are still valid :). For someone that wants to open a company, social aids and healthcare access can matter. Other countries are more open than France is, but it doesn't make France a black hole where nobody can make a good career. The Paris tech scene is most alive.

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#18

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:37 AM UTC

nerbert wrote: post #8

France is a fantastic country to start a company: very little things to pay until you actually make a profit, company creation process is easy, consequences for failure are very low to inexistant if you’re a startup. And the state is there to help you get all kind of loans by offering guarantees to the banks for you.

Firing people is ridiculously hard in France. I would say quite an important point in case startup experiences anything else but ideal logarithmic growth, actually even in that case (realizing somebody wasn't a great hire after trial period)

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#19

Post by nakedrobot2 » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:41 AM UTC

In Europe you can't fire employees.

It makes it nearly impossible to run a startup. It is the very antithesis of running a startup.

Unless you get lucky and can survive by hiring contractors, just forget about starting a startup in Europe.

Source: 2 startups in Europe.

Re: Show HN: How to start a business in France

#20

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #19

In Europe you can't fire employees. It makes it nearly impossible to run a startup. It is the very antithesis of running a startup. Unless you get lucky and can survive by hiring contractors, just forget about starting a startup in Europe. Source: 2 startups in Europe.

You can, you just need to do it through the performance management or redundancy processes and not on a whim. You can also usually have "probation" periods of six months or so.

(also "Europe" is a large place, could you be more specific?)