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Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

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Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#191
post #168
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but what happens when a state actor threatens to kill the family [...] No messenger system protects you against that. You seem to be going through the full sequence of well-known poor ways to evaluate the security of something like an instant messenger, starting with the feature matrix, going through 'it can't be secure if it's not open source/self-hosted/federated' and reaching the Mossad. Which is a worthwhile and…

I actually think it is. Journalists covering sensitive topics in sensitive areas -must- care about these questions. If you are using something anonymous, fully end to end encrypted with open source reproducible verified builds on decentralized servers, you can greatly limit the risk of having a central third party that can be compelled to act against your interests. Maybe in the US we don't think we need those sorts…

> Not everyone cares about this sort of thing though, and there are 70+ other options listed with various tradeoffs.

This is precisely pvg's point. The problem with your methodology is a systemic one that emerges in every crowdsourced threat modeling exercise. You've enumerated every possible security attribute and security feature of every software in a specific category, then tossed them all into a matrix of boolean values. But that does not result in a threat model users can competently assess, for several reasons:

1. You're treating all features as equal - if not in intention, then at least in presentation. Even if you don't intend it, the sea of green at the top is a loud proclamation of safety; likewise the sea of red at the bottom is a siren of insecurity.

2. You're not allowing any nuance in assessment feature or attributes. Boolean flags cannot capture all the nuance inherent in cryptographic security. Which specific party was responsible for an assessment? What are their credentials? What did they find?

3. You're including features which most users don't and shouldn't care about just because some minority might. Moreover you're not being opinionated enough, which is something that comes with expertise - for many of the "features" you listed, the minority that cares probably shouldn't if they only care because of a vague notion of security.

4. You're leaving out important features which should absolutely be considered for security. Where is forward secrecy? Where is authenticated encryption? Where is consideration of specific algorithms or primitives? Where is nonce misuse resistance?

5. Most importantly: you do not have any explicitly called out methodology that allows someone to audit what you've done. If you begin by pre-supposing that a given feature is worthy of inclusion because it's an important security metric, your conclusion is just going to end up magnifying that bias. Therefore it's paramount that you call out methodologies explicitly and early.

We see this time and time again in security. People try to first principles the security of an entire category of software by being exhaustive about every type of threat and security feature they can think of. But they invariably leave out important threats/features, underestimate the importance of some and overestimate the importance of others. Exercises which attempt to give users the world almost always end up "empowering" them to boil the ocean. People looking at this spreadsheet are approximately all unqualified to make an informed decision based on a critical assessment of all those features, which means they're likely to just go with the most green option (or worse, proselytize the most green option as the most secure one to their friends and coworkers).

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#192
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I changed the word "shill" in an edit right after I posted as that was unfair/unhelpful and realized you might think it was directed at you. It was not. I welcome this type of debate personally. > Do you professionally audit software? I do as a matter of fact. I'll be honest it is normally much easier in closed products as I know what to look for. It is generally much harder to find flaws in popular open source syste…

You professionally audit secure messaging applications? For what kinds of vulnerabilities? I have turned down invitations to audit some of these applications because I didn't feel qualified to render an assessment (I've been doing professional software security assessment, of closed/open source applications, since 1996). Did you take money for those assessments? Which ones did you do? I'd like to take a closer look a…

I audit tools myself, my employers, or partners consider and if I find obvious flaws then I file bugs for those products and generally we either don't use them or limit their use.

I feel qualified only to certify that a tool is obviously insecure, but I don't think -anyone- will ever be qualified to solo certify something as totally secure. (but sadly that is how clean audits are generally read). I have in the past hired 3-4 audit firms and each would find flaws the others did not, and that mine did not, but fail to spot flaws that mine did. No one has the full picture.

The only relevant one not under embargo atm was my recent casual 2-3 hour audit of Lifesize which I found right away had a number of alarming issues the company would not address. Some of these may of been found to be non issues under further inspection, but there was more than enough to assert security was not a major focus of the platform.

This cursory look was all it took for me to feel confident in ending any consideration of that product to protect the interests of the entity considering it.

I reported all these to the company and there was no response for over 90 days and made my findings public after due warning.

They are available here: https://gist.github.com/lrvick/6e600d8484cfb415d1e2b06e8b345...

(reminder: this was only 2-3 hours of work and by all means grain of salt)

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#193
post #45

This is neat but it has plenty of flaws. I wish the definitions were spelled out. It says Signal isn't "anonymous", which I assume means "uses a phone number to find peers". And it has the usual feature matrix problem: sure XMPP "does E2E". But what does that mean? It supports S/MIME. Do you want S/MIME? (You don't.) It supports OTR, TS and SCIMP too: but you need to be an expert in messaging schemes to understand ho…

Requiring a phone number means you have to disclose your identity (in many countries, for example in Russia) and your physical location (everywhere). This is the opposite to privacy and anonimity. Imagine, one of your contacts is captured; attackers get his contact list that includes you; then they get your phone number from Signal; then they get your location and put you to all kinds of black lists, extremists lists…

When you compare Signal with Telegram on this axis you actually end up with Telegram being "safer". Because while Telegram needs phone number for initial registration you can just throw the SIM away after that (how to get anonnymous SIM capable of receiving SMS is left as an excercise for the reader, but I believe that getting reasonably anonymous burner SIM for this single use is possible and even easy anywhere in the world, with the extreme approach being "borrowing" it from some random IoT device) as the authorization of new devices occurs in-band.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#194
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but what happens when a state actor threatens to kill the family [...] No messenger system protects you against that. You seem to be going through the full sequence of well-known poor ways to evaluate the security of something like an instant messenger, starting with the feature matrix, going through 'it can't be secure if it's not open source/self-hosted/federated' and reaching the Mossad. Which is a worthwhile and…

> No messenger system protects you against that. If the system doesn't have central server then it would become more difficult. You cannot subpoena a Tox network. Any messenger that requires and stores a phone number (read your real-world identity and physical location) is neither anonymous nor private. Also, a centralized messenger with a single server means that all traffic between all the users around the world go…

If the system doesn't have central server then it would become more difficult. You cannot subpoena a Tox network.

The threat that was brought up was an actor with state-level resources, coercive capability and lack of scruples - the specific example being the threat of murdering someone's family, not subpoenas.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#195
post #45

This is neat but it has plenty of flaws. I wish the definitions were spelled out. It says Signal isn't "anonymous", which I assume means "uses a phone number to find peers". And it has the usual feature matrix problem: sure XMPP "does E2E". But what does that mean? It supports S/MIME. Do you want S/MIME? (You don't.) It supports OTR, TS and SCIMP too: but you need to be an expert in messaging schemes to understand ho…

Yeah security for groups is messed up anyway.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#196
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but what happens when a state actor threatens to kill the family [...] No messenger system protects you against that. You seem to be going through the full sequence of well-known poor ways to evaluate the security of something like an instant messenger, starting with the feature matrix, going through 'it can't be secure if it's not open source/self-hosted/federated' and reaching the Mossad. Which is a worthwhile and…

> No messenger system protects you against that. If the system doesn't have central server then it would become more difficult. You cannot subpoena a Tox network. Any messenger that requires and stores a phone number (read your real-world identity and physical location) is neither anonymous nor private. Also, a centralized messenger with a single server means that all traffic between all the users around the world go…

So that whole "it's all flowing though a single DC" thing for Signal - that has a name in this sphere. It's called "Don't Stand Out".

When five people call the known mob boss you follow all of them. Maybe one is just a friend from high school. Another is the mob accountant, another an enforcer, you're getting leads. But what if it's five thousand people - now you can't follow them all, it's overwhelming.

Knowing five people in your country use Signal puts them all on the watchlist. If it's five million that's pointless. Without "Don't stand out" the encryption used just makes you a target.

Barry, who uses Barry's very own private self-hosted server for a popular federated system, Stands Out. Message from Japan to Barry's system? That's for Barry. How do we know? Well Barry's the only one on that server, easy. No cryptography can fix this.

Don't Stand Out

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#197

Kakao Talk has claimed to have E2E Encrypted chat at least since 2014; it is not on by default. https://www.pcworld.com/article/2856452/kakao-talk-adds-secr... https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/07/chat-app-kakao-talk-begins...

Amended.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#198
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring a phone number means you have to disclose your identity (in many countries, for example in Russia) and your physical location (everywhere). This is the opposite to privacy and anonimity. Imagine, one of your contacts is captured; attackers get his contact list that includes you; then they get your phone number from Signal; then they get your location and put you to all kinds of black lists, extremists lists…

That equivalence does not follow. The counterpoint is simple: can people figure out how to get burner numbers? Yes, they can: there are a myriad of services for doing so. And, importantly: journalists already know how.

First, that leaves a trace: location where you used that number to connect to GSM network (ok, there are also services receiving messages for you).

Second, this is inconvenient: if you change your IP address or log out, the server will require you to provide a SMS code.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#199
post #81

It's funny and sad that XMPP hits almost all of the points, has been around since 1999 and yet every year someone reinvents the wheel and makes another messenger system. There are what, about 60+ by now. Granted XMPP is not a messenger it's a protocol and a bunch of standards but still it's hard not to laugh.

When Jan and I evaluated XMPP in 2009, we found that it was not very mobile friendly. To provide a couple of examples -- (1) The login path required an inordinate number of round trips (I think it was 4+). This slowed down login quite considerably. (2) XMPP is byte verbose and expensive on mobile networks. We came to the conclusion that XMPP was built for desktop computers connected to strong internet via LAN connect…

Yeah, I remember 10 years ago (or more), they were looking into ways to make it more mobile friendly, including Roster Versioning (so you wouldn't need the whole series of transactions to get your roster on initial connection), session keepalive (the basic protocol expects one long TCP session, which is of course impractical on mobile), and stream compression.

Sadly, those weren't really enough at the time, and the new protocol Babel happened.

Re: Messenger systems compared by security, privacy, compatibility, and features

#200
post #186
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That equivalence does not follow. The counterpoint is simple: can people figure out how to get burner numbers? Yes, they can: there are a myriad of services for doing so. And, importantly: journalists already know how.

In many countries it's not (legally) possible to buy a SIM card without providing your ID. Sure, you go ahead and buy an illegal burner number, then download Signal/Whatsapp from the Play Store and reverse engineer that binary to see if it "does what it says". Other people might find it useful to look at this comparison to discover alternatives that better fit the characteristics they find important.

I know; I lived in one. A burner number does not imply getting a SIM. That is not how journos in sensitive countries get a number.
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