Live data from Hacker News

MongoDB switches up its open source license

techcrunch.com

151–160 of 487 posts

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#151
post #33

(Context: I worked on Compose/MongoHQ for a very long time. We were the first to monetize MongoDB) I'm sure people will get riled up about this, but it makes sense. Building a business on an OSS database in a world of behemoth cloud providers is really hard. It's clear Google and Amazon (and maybe even Azure) are comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did al…

> comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did all the groundwork flailing in the wind Well, that's one way to put it I guess. I personally am OK with anyone taking my work and doing a ton of proprietary development on it. I wouldn't put it out there that way if I wasn't (and don't w/ my proprietary stuff). We need to stop demonizing restrictionless developmen…

> Same with commercial/copy-left development of course, but I'm seeing too much copy-left righteousness these days.

I'm not sure what planet you live on, but the GPL and other various copy-left licenses have been on the slow decline for years in part due to things like SaaS negating the use of everything but the Affero GPL and the social 'implications' of using the GPL ("poisonous", "viral"), while the use of extremely liberally-licensed, "corporate-friendly" permissive licenses has skyrocketed.

You don't have to look far (I've seen it more than once) to find people submitting issues on places like GitHub to completely relicense a project, just because it was GPL. Even here, every time a piece of code with a GPL license is attached and posted, you can be certain of someone pointing this out.

There are technical factors involved (like what's the deal with JavaScript licensing), but ultimately less projects choose the GPL -- or any other "demanding" copy-left license -- than ever before, so I have no idea what you're talking about, other than a perceived persecution complex where you think people are trying to "stop you" from using their code?

Of course, the funny thing is you say we need to stop "demonizing" restrictionless development, and of all copyleft licenses, the Affero GPL actually has risen in usage. But that's not because there's a big mean group of copy-leftists making people do it through blackmail. It's because it's risen in usage in corporate-sponsored, open-core projects, precisely to disincentivize systems like large, already-rich SaaS companies sucking the money out of their core customers by requiring them to share the source code for their changes (which they are often unable to do, making it effective). Corporations that sell open source software exactly understand how this game works -- they don't want other companies directly eating away the bulk of their revenue streams by just slapping a stupid UX and some user management patches on top, and so they license their software in an appropriate manner to try to cover all bases (source available, but without already-geared-up companies eating away their direct lifelines).

You'll also notice most of the companies doing this strategy aren't already highly-powerful, highly-monied SaaS companies. They're often much smaller and starting off, trying to get their software in the hands of users, while retaining revenue leads. Highly powerful companies like Google can afford to just release everything under non-copyleft licenses like Apache or MIT. They can subsidize the development of the software through established business.

But I imagine most people on this website wouldn't see these companies as being "copy-left righteous", only "protecting their investment". Unsurprisingly, this kind of understanding doesn't seem to extend to individual developers who license their code under a copyleft licenses (who are "righteous", and have no reason to care about anything other than the most people possible using their software).

Maybe the "copy-left" righteousness you're seeing isn't a massive proliferation of copy-left licensing, but actually a result of people getting wise to the way this conversation plays out. After all, if I'm going to be accused of being righteous, I might as well use the GPL, since apparently anything less than a free-for-all isn't acceptable to a lot of people.

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#152

Vice President of the Open Source Initiative here. MongoDB submitted this new license for approval by OSI at the same time that they announced that they'd relicensed all of their code. We wish they'd started the process prior to the announcement, but what's done is done. The result, however, is that at this moment, MongoDB is under a non-approved license and therefore IS NOT OPEN SOURCE. As the license review process…

[deleted]

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#153
post #41
post #33

(Context: I worked on Compose/MongoHQ for a very long time. We were the first to monetize MongoDB) I'm sure people will get riled up about this, but it makes sense. Building a business on an OSS database in a world of behemoth cloud providers is really hard. It's clear Google and Amazon (and maybe even Azure) are comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did al…

> It's clear Google and Amazon (and maybe even Azure) are comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did all the groundwork flailing in the wind. Have you seen the degree of investment Microsoft has made lately in Open Source? It's an upside-down world where Microsoft if a bigger champion -- and funder -- of open source than a company like Google which was built…

Amazon also spends a lot of time and effort on Open Source software, including the Linux kernel. They also contribute money to various open source foundations and target funding for various groups like OpenSSL.

Microsoft gets all the news because it's a drastic change from normal behaviour.

Amazon, Google, Oracle et all just keep steadily contributing stuff. A lot of the work is also deadly boring and not headline capturing stuff.

Few simple queries to show the work they're doing just on the kernel:

Amazon: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

Google: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

Microsoft: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

Oracle: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#154

Vice President of the Open Source Initiative here. MongoDB submitted this new license for approval by OSI at the same time that they announced that they'd relicensed all of their code. We wish they'd started the process prior to the announcement, but what's done is done. The result, however, is that at this moment, MongoDB is under a non-approved license and therefore IS NOT OPEN SOURCE. As the license review process…

1. The idea that OSI seriously thinks it gets to decide what counts as open source is laughable. This is akin to Linux being released for the first time, and Microsoft issuing a warning that they have not yet verified that Linux is a "real" operating system, and to stay tuned for their final judgement. The arrogance here is hilarious. I've been working in open source for years and I've never, ever heard of OSI.

2. All "open source" really means is that the source code is available in some way/shape/form, with no implication whatsoever made about the license of said code. "Free and open source" on the other hand implies a permissive license.

3. I don't know anything about the MongoDB license before or after these changes, I just despise the tone of this message.

So to recap. OSI is just some random organization with no bearing on what society decides open source is or isn't, and therefore what they say DOES NOT MATTER.

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#156
The meat of the change:

SSPL explicitly states that anybody who wants to offer MongoDB as a service — or really any other software that uses this license — needs to either get a commercial license or open source the service to give back the community.

Looks like a pretty straightforward extension of GPL principles, by replacing the linking of licensed code to remotely calling the licensed code.

It can have a lot of implications for service providers and commercial developers alike, depending on the way commercial licenses will work. (Some DB licenses have pretty stifling clauses, like Oracle's or MS SQL's.)

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of AWS's managed services are just off the shelf open source projects on the backend. Amazon can afford to fork the project and poach top talent from your company. I think these moves are extremely short-sighted. Changing license models only causes instability in the overall ecosystem.

Why doesn't Amazon just pay mongodb? If you you hired some employees from mongo you would have to pay money.

Predictability: who's to say what MongoDB will decide in the future e.g. ask for more money and/or charge per vCPU + memory. Employing developers directly, on the other hand: here's an offer and vesting schedule - they know exactly how much they will spend for 3+ years, and get to control the roadmap.

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#158
post #33

(Context: I worked on Compose/MongoHQ for a very long time. We were the first to monetize MongoDB) I'm sure people will get riled up about this, but it makes sense. Building a business on an OSS database in a world of behemoth cloud providers is really hard. It's clear Google and Amazon (and maybe even Azure) are comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did al…

> comfy taking OSS work, doing a ton of proprietary development on it, and leaving the companies who did all the groundwork flailing in the wind Well, that's one way to put it I guess. I personally am OK with anyone taking my work and doing a ton of proprietary development on it. I wouldn't put it out there that way if I wasn't (and don't w/ my proprietary stuff). We need to stop demonizing restrictionless developmen…

I don't see much in your argument apart from: I'm okay with this; you shouldn't be self-righteous; don't hate on corporations. Lots of telling me what I should do and how I ought to feel about my work, nothing really backing it up. In which case, I feel justified in simply responding: no, my values are different from yours.

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#159
MongoDB gots lot of interesting features recently and probably got to a stable line. They also have lot of product around MongoDB ecosystem:

- Atlas to deploy - Stitch to run serverless - Chart for BI

So they basically want to protected their leverage, which make sense to me.

Re: MongoDB switches up its open source license

#160
post #156

The meat of the change: SSPL explicitly states that anybody who wants to offer MongoDB as a service — or really any other software that uses this license — needs to either get a commercial license or open source the service to give back the community. Looks like a pretty straightforward extension of GPL principles, by replacing the linking of licensed code to remotely calling the licensed code. It can have a lot of i…

MongoDB was already under the AGPL (which adds the copyleft via network provision) so I suspect there is a bigger difference than that.
Post reply on HN