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Removing Old Versions of TLS

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#31

Post by lousken »

amoshi wrote: post #7
JoshTriplett wrote: post #4

Most of the pushback here isn't going to be on the web. It's going to be in corporate systems and proxies that haven't upgraded, and reject anything they don't understand. For instance, some corporate proxies will parse TLS and drop connections they don't understand. Theoretically, they do this to combat things like Heartbleed; in practice, they do it because the same tools will (with the flip of a switch) do termina…

There are still some essential government, military and corporate websites relying on these protocols that will not be updated any time soon - it should always be possible for a user to override this block. I really dislike this "browser smarter than the user" design.

if military and government sites rely on old encryption schemes i think there's much bigger problem than that

And even as a person who wants to have toggle for everything i don't think this is a good option in this particular case. If someone wants legacy, they can stick with an old browser instead.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#32

Post by toast0 »

regecks wrote: post #10
themew wrote: post #3

So if we remove TLS 1.1 from our servers and just offer 1.2, we fail on fallback when testing through Qualys.

There's no reason to remove TLS 1.1 from your server. This change is about the minimum protocol version supported by the browser. Your server can advertise SSLv3 support alongside TLS 1.2, and Chrome 70 will still happily connect to it.

> There's no reason to remove TLS 1.1 from your server.

I posit there's no reason to support TLS 1.1 on your server. There are very few clients that support TLS 1.1, but not TLS 1.2. So, either you are willing to support clients on TLS 1.0 (or SSLv3), or you aren't.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#33

Post by colemickens »

amoshi wrote: post #7
JoshTriplett wrote: post #4

Most of the pushback here isn't going to be on the web. It's going to be in corporate systems and proxies that haven't upgraded, and reject anything they don't understand. For instance, some corporate proxies will parse TLS and drop connections they don't understand. Theoretically, they do this to combat things like Heartbleed; in practice, they do it because the same tools will (with the flip of a switch) do termina…

There are still some essential government, military and corporate websites relying on these protocols that will not be updated any time soon - it should always be possible for a user to override this block. I really dislike this "browser smarter than the user" design.

Government, military, and corporations. Exactly the people I want pushing critical data (or my data) over insecure channels. /s

Besides, we all know there will be plenty of organizations that issue convoluted instructions that are the equivalent of "reset your clock to before the cert expiration".

As someone who had to deal with fallout from Equifax, I'm all in favor of smarter, yes smarter, parties acting in the collective security benefit of us all. As you point out, some will drag their feet otherwise.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#34

Post by anderskaseorg »

tialaramex wrote: post #14
petecooper wrote: post #8

If you want Nginx to use TLS v1.2, this is what you need: ssl_protocols TLSv1.2; …and if you compile a recent Nginx from source and bake in OpenSSL 1.1.1 while you do that, you can have TLS v1.3 with a TLS v1.2 fallback, too: ssl_protocols TLSv1.3 TLSv1.2; See also: https://caniuse.com/#feat=tls1-2 https://caniuse.com/#feat=tls1-3

This is a bad design by nginx, how many people configuring a web server are thinking to themselves "I better check which version of OpenSSL I compiled with in order to set the appropriate TLS versions?". I'd guess approximately none. The correct design would be something like: tls_minimum_version 1.2; If they feel a compulsion to do so they could add a maximum version, but with a default of (none) and an explicit war…

I reported this four years ago with a patch at https://trac.nginx.org/nginx/ticket/642. Nobody seems to have noticed.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#35

Post by 1over137 »

toast0 wrote: post #32
regecks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason to remove TLS 1.1 from your server. This change is about the minimum protocol version supported by the browser. Your server can advertise SSLv3 support alongside TLS 1.2, and Chrome 70 will still happily connect to it.

> There's no reason to remove TLS 1.1 from your server. I posit there's no reason to support TLS 1.1 on your server. There are very few clients that support TLS 1.1, but not TLS 1.2. So, either you are willing to support clients on TLS 1.0 (or SSLv3), or you aren't.

Apple only added TLS 1.2 to their SecureTransport lib in OS X 10.9, which was released in late 2013. Not so old!

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#37

Post by Groxx »

dagenix wrote: post #27
amoshi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still some essential government, military and corporate websites relying on these protocols that will not be updated any time soon - it should always be possible for a user to override this block. I really dislike this "browser smarter than the user" design.

How many users: a) Know what TLS is b) and, have a secure channel to their destination website that allows them to determine that it intends to serve TLS 1.0 c) and, aren't in a position to just upgrade the darn thing to at least TLS 1.2? d) and, know that there are no undisclosed weaknesses in the outdated design of TLS 1.0 or in the outdated cryptography that it mandate Most users fail a). Basically the only way to…

To add to this:

Supporting old stuff costs time. If the company (or a group of companies) believes they know better, they can contribute the code to change this. And maintain it. Or pay someone else to. It's perfectly viable and it accurately reflects the cost of the business's decision to not change something.

Otherwise no, most browsers must be safe for the lowest common denominator, and they do know better than most.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#38

Post by CorpusCalcium »

jandrese wrote: post #25

I kind of wish they'd leave the option to re-enable them in extreme circumstances. It's really annoying to try to bring up the web interface on some crusty old piece of hardware and discovering that the SSL/TLS negotiation can't find a workable solution.

Assuming that device is actually worth accessing, then you could still keep and use an old version of a browser for that purpose. Newer browser versions should be pushing the web forward where possible.

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#39

Post by userbinator »

amoshi wrote: post #7
JoshTriplett wrote: post #4

Most of the pushback here isn't going to be on the web. It's going to be in corporate systems and proxies that haven't upgraded, and reject anything they don't understand. For instance, some corporate proxies will parse TLS and drop connections they don't understand. Theoretically, they do this to combat things like Heartbleed; in practice, they do it because the same tools will (with the flip of a switch) do termina…

There are still some essential government, military and corporate websites relying on these protocols that will not be updated any time soon - it should always be possible for a user to override this block. I really dislike this "browser smarter than the user" design.

Not to mention "fringe" websites that still contain much useful information, are occasionally found in search engines, and more frequently in bookmarked site lists... gov/mil/corp have plenty of resources to add new TLS versions, but just not always the willingness to, and that isn't so bad since "adding willingness" is not impossible; it's really the "small players" out there which will be most affected, those who have personally maintained sites or even sites abandoned on servers for a long time.

Fortunately most of those sites still use "not secure" plain HTTP (I wonder if they're going to remove that too!?), but this feels to me like yet another sad sacrifice of freedom for security, and in this case it's almost --- but not quite --- book-burning. The Internet used to be a much more diverse and interesting place, if perhaps more dangerous; but in encouraging the dominance of this "safe and secure" censorship, sites run by large corporations and centralisation of power into them and the CAs that essentially act as access gatekeepers, I feel like we've lost a lot of what made the Internet a really unique and fun (including the risk) experience.

I think an appropriate real-world analogy is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slum_clearance

Re: Removing Old Versions of TLS

#40

Post by toast0 »

1over137 wrote: post #35
toast0 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no reason to remove TLS 1.1 from your server. I posit there's no reason to support TLS 1.1 on your server. There are very few clients that support TLS 1.1, but not TLS 1.2. So, either you are willing to support clients on TLS 1.0 (or SSLv3), or you aren't.

Apple only added TLS 1.2 to their SecureTransport lib in OS X 10.9, which was released in late 2013. Not so old!

Did they actually support tls 1.1 though?
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