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The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

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Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#301
post #299
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And… you make my point for me. Thanks. Tell me, does your “supersolid dark mater” also rotate once every 24 hours?

Nobel laureates are "fringe (read that pseudoscience) speculators"?

No. You proved my point by demonstrating that you have no idea what they are talking about.

You could educate yourself. Go study quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Learn about particle fields, vacuum fluctuations, virtual particle pairs, and the Casimir effect. Find out what this "boiling sea of vacuum energy" actually is, and why one might call it ether, and in what sense that would be true.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#302

My attempt to summarize the reasons would be: We haven't directly detected dark matter because we don't really know what we are looking for, and there are only a few things we can search for. Dark matter might not be structured in a way we can investigate with current technology. Also, dark matter doesn't interact much with regular matter, which makes the search even harder.

As I understood it (I'm not a physicist so probably wrongly) dark matter is the proposed answer to reconcile General Relativity Theory (which is the current gravity theory) with actual observations of the universe.

So there is two possibilities:

- There is no dark matter and the general relativity is wrong.

- There is dark matter and the general relativity is correct.

And maybe a combination of both: there is something we don't detect but the theory is also wrong.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#303
post #301
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobel laureates are "fringe (read that pseudoscience) speculators"?

No. You proved my point by demonstrating that you have no idea what they are talking about. You could educate yourself. Go study quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Learn about particle fields, vacuum fluctuations, virtual particle pairs, and the Casimir effect. Find out what this "boiling sea of vacuum energy" actually is, and why one might call it ether, and in what sense that would be true.

It is the chaotic nature of the supersolid dark matter which causes the Casimir effect.

https://youtu.be/Dv8IRx43vy0

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#304
post #302

My attempt to summarize the reasons would be: We haven't directly detected dark matter because we don't really know what we are looking for, and there are only a few things we can search for. Dark matter might not be structured in a way we can investigate with current technology. Also, dark matter doesn't interact much with regular matter, which makes the search even harder.

As I understood it (I'm not a physicist so probably wrongly) dark matter is the proposed answer to reconcile General Relativity Theory (which is the current gravity theory) with actual observations of the universe. So there is two possibilities: - There is no dark matter and the general relativity is wrong. - There is dark matter and the general relativity is correct. And maybe a combination of both: there is somethi…

It's not just General Relativity -- if there is no dark matter, the very Newtonian gravitational force having an 1/distance² relationship would need to be wrong on large scales.

However, no attempt at formulating a theory that propose a different long-range gravity than 1/distance² (and still reduces to the known behavior in the short range) has held up to observations.

(And with "short" I mean "on the scales inside our solar system", not meters).

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#305
post #302

My attempt to summarize the reasons would be: We haven't directly detected dark matter because we don't really know what we are looking for, and there are only a few things we can search for. Dark matter might not be structured in a way we can investigate with current technology. Also, dark matter doesn't interact much with regular matter, which makes the search even harder.

As I understood it (I'm not a physicist so probably wrongly) dark matter is the proposed answer to reconcile General Relativity Theory (which is the current gravity theory) with actual observations of the universe. So there is two possibilities: - There is no dark matter and the general relativity is wrong. - There is dark matter and the general relativity is correct. And maybe a combination of both: there is somethi…

Actually you're missing the other possibility.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#306

Super weird food for thought, but I used to think about the universe a lot as a kid, and back then we were under the assumption that the expansion of the universe was slowing. At some point that viewpoint changed and we now believe it is accelerating, hence the emergence of so called dark matter. Anyway, this led me to envision a fourth dimension, a sphere. Imagine that our universe began at any arbitrary point on th…

I used to be a bit interested in astrophysics, so I can't vouch 100% for this being accurate, but it's my understanding: The universe isn't the penny, it's the balloon. Physicists believe we are living on the surface of a hypersphere. One important consequence of this idea is that the big bang didn't occur at a specific point in our 3D space, but at the center of the sphere. Furthermore, the concept of a balloon expa…

When you consider that the theory of the Big Bang is incorrect, then other concepts like movement of galaxies throughout the universe take on a different perspective.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot falsify dark matter, and you cannot prove a negative. Imagine I say there is a 5 headed green deer that weighs 2000 pounds and can speak Gaelic, but it's really good at avoiding being spotted - so good in fact that you can even look at right at it and might not see it. And you can even touch it and not even know you're touching it! What would you could consider an exhaustive proof of its lack of existenc…

But dark matter no longer is particularly simple. At the time of its initial proposal it was little more than unobserved masses, which could have been something as simple as e.g. red dwarves. And so it made sense to reference dark matter as a place holder. But over time as we've discovered things are even more off, dark matter itself has started to morph into our 2000 pound Gaelic speaking deer. Now it comprises the…

> It would be, by fair, the biggest failure in modern science. So there is reason that alternatives to dark matter are held to a higher standard than dark matter itself, beyond simplicity - which dark matter no longer really is.

I don't think this is anything to do with a higher standard. It's more like Occam's razor. If there's an alternative explanation that will upend our whole understanding of gravity and cosmology, have at it. But such an explanation must come with something testable that shows it's true.

Here's an example of an alternative explanation, "a wizard did it." But that's not science, because there's no way to prove it. As a result, in the absence of a testable hypothesis, you have to go along with the one that does the least violence to all currently existing knowledge, surely?

I.e. what I'm saying is that it isn't on the Dark matter theory to prove itself. We already have observable gravitational issues that need something weird to be true. Dark matter is just the simplest explanation anyone can come up with that fits the facts. It's on any other theory to either throw out less of already-established science by being an even simpler explanation, or to prove it's justified in throwing out more by showing experimental evidence.

Or, to put it another way. I agree that dark matter isn't a simple theory. But there isn't currently a simpler one on the market.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But dark matter no longer is particularly simple. At the time of its initial proposal it was little more than unobserved masses, which could have been something as simple as e.g. red dwarves. And so it made sense to reference dark matter as a place holder. But over time as we've discovered things are even more off, dark matter itself has started to morph into our 2000 pound Gaelic speaking deer. Now it comprises the…

> It would be, by fair, the biggest failure in modern science. So there is reason that alternatives to dark matter are held to a higher standard than dark matter itself, beyond simplicity - which dark matter no longer really is. I don't think this is anything to do with a higher standard. It's more like Occam's razor. If there's an alternative explanation that will upend our whole understanding of gravity and cosmolo…

Let's go back to the late 19th century and give the physicists of the time a peek of what would come to be the future of dark matter -- that it would not only end up needing to be a rather exotic form of matter, but that it would need to account for nearly all matter in the universe, along with all the countless negative conditions we can also now apply to its existence as a result of various experimental failures. Of course we would also give them the pros of dark matter in that it also explains, after substantial 'refactoring', some other otherwise difficult to explain issues. The dilemma that they then face is pondering whether this material seems more probable, or whether it might be the case that e.g. Newtonian dynamics is somehow missing something? For brevity, I'm sidestepping relativity.

I think you'll see a lot of the issues with alternatives such as MOND are a 'lack of elegance', yet we've happily accepted that the universe on a very small scale is far from elegant, so it seems peculiar to insist that on the very large scale it must behave with elegance. Another issue is that MOND generally also has a requirement of some dark matter, but the critical difference is it's just that - matter (including baryonic) that cannot yet be observed, not the increasingly exotic material that dark matter has morphed into. And it also only requires a small fraction of the amount that current dark matter does.

I tend to agree that dark matter is the most probable explanation. But, at the same time I think the resource allocation for dark matter as opposed to everything else is probably not the one we would choose if we were being completely impartial.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor correction: The accelerating expansion of the universe implies the existence of dark energy, not dark matter.

This is not a minor correction simply because they both contain the word "dark". It would have been slightly more correct to confuse the terms dark matter and dark chocolate. Dark energy is an entirely different kettle of fish.

[deleted]

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#310

Super weird food for thought, but I used to think about the universe a lot as a kid, and back then we were under the assumption that the expansion of the universe was slowing. At some point that viewpoint changed and we now believe it is accelerating, hence the emergence of so called dark matter. Anyway, this led me to envision a fourth dimension, a sphere. Imagine that our universe began at any arbitrary point on th…

Minor correction: The accelerating expansion of the universe implies the existence of dark energy, not dark matter.

Correction noted and accepted. Thanks. In this particular thought experiment, dark energy (not dark matter as originally stated) has been replaced by the shape of space, and due to our inability to directly detect such extra-dimensional curvature we have defined this energy as a placeholder (which would not exist if this experiment proved to be true).
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