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Java Is Still Free

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Re: Java Is Still Free

#81

Post by knightofmars »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #21
the_clarence wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not the trendy language anymore. We still have a lot of it because of legacy products and a generation trained on it mostly. But new languages are objectively better and getting adopted at a faster rate than ever. What young programer wants to write java nowadays? When you have Golang, Rust, Swift, Python, etc.

> What young programer wants to write java nowadays? One who wants to earn good money working with legacy stuff?

It's more than "legacy stuff" as well. People always hear "Java" and immediately think "legacy application". I find it quite amusing. It's this weird idea that somehow nobody would or could ever write a new application in Java. Yet here we are with RedHat Thorntail (previously Swarm) and other modern frameworks written in Java and ready to deliver solid large-scale performance.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#82

Post by crazysmoove »

petetnt wrote: post #75

Honestly, if you need a third-party to explain your scheme with a 6000-word, 20 page document there might be some sort of issues with your scheme.

Or it could just be a problem with people over-complicating things. User bradleyjg does a great job of summarizing the scheme in the post just above yours -- it's amazing how much virtual ink has gone into discussing this when things really are that simple.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#83

Post by bilbo0s »

sytelus wrote: post #43
kamaal wrote: post #26

The problem with write ups like these is they send the exact opposite message of what was intended to be sent. Even those people who didn't receive the news, will now hear about this. On the other hand, the entire write up seems to attempt to convince people to keep faith in Oracle. The problem with this kind of talk is you are the mercy of some VP in Oracle, whose one decision could change everything and given the f…

> The only languages that can match that ecosystem are Perl and Python. And may be Javascript. Nope. Python as well as Perl are pretty slow compared to Java on JVM. To replace Java you need to move to either C# or Go. The key thing would be licensing terms and available frameworks. Smart CIOs with lots of Java baggage in their companies should be investing in transition to C# given the state of things. It would be pr…

>Smart CIOs with lots of Java baggage in their companies should be investing in transition to C# given the state of things...

Uh, out of the frying pan, into the fire.

People are complaining because the DON'T want to pay for support. So switching to C# to pay for support is not really solving the problem. The base problem is that people want to pay ZERO for support, but get the OracleJDK instead of having to use the free OpenJDK. (I'm a linux guy so I don't mind OpenJDK. But apparently a lot of people don't like the whole free side of Java.)

So if they switch to C# to access support, they would still have to pay. This is the essential issue.

People don't want to pay.

Switching to C# does nothing for them. Switching to Go would allow them to get free stuff. But only until someone started charging. Which might not be for a while. Also, Go probably doesn't have even close to the number of third party libraries that Java has. So that would be a consideration in the case of switching to Go.

But yeah, switching to C# would just be stupid in this case. It would cost more for the support than Oracle charges for Java.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#84

Post by lmm »

simion314 wrote: post #73
amelius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time somebody copied the API there was a lawsuit.

There are some rules if you want to re implement Java, but it is possible since we have many alternatives to chose from. T^he main point is to pass all the needed tests to confirm your re-implementation is compatible and not do what MS tried to do (embrace,extend,extinguish)

You missed that you will be arbitrarily denied the ability to actually run those tests if you're trying to make a true open source implementation - see Apache Harmony.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#85

Post by bilbo0s »

saiya-jin wrote: post #78
sytelus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only languages that can match that ecosystem are Perl and Python. And may be Javascript. Nope. Python as well as Perl are pretty slow compared to Java on JVM. To replace Java you need to move to either C# or Go. The key thing would be licensing terms and available frameworks. Smart CIOs with lots of Java baggage in their companies should be investing in transition to C# given the state of things. It would be pr…

CIO deciding to dump all Java estate and move to .NET/C# wouldn't last in the position for long. Business doesn't care much about platform or other technological nitpicks, they want solid, reliable tools. Both (and many more) can deliver this. Java was, is and will be solid, you can find much more tools/frameworks/libraries for any task, and tons of highly skilled devs. That few people moan on internet forums won't c…

>Business doesn't care much about platform...

Businesses would care about the new support bill they would get for C# support. I think there would be a little sticker shock on the part of the CFO when they saw the matching support contract.

The real problem is, they used to get all the support free. Now they have to pay. So if they switch, they need to switch to something just as reliable, equally performant, but free of support charges. Which doesn't really exist.

(Well it does, but that would be OpenJDK. Which they don't want to use. Presumably because they don't get commercial support at the level they need it.)

The people complaining want to switch to something where the commercial support contract does NOT cost money. Which kind of eliminates Java and C#.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#86

Post by spreiti »

knightofmars wrote: post #81
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What young programer wants to write java nowadays? One who wants to earn good money working with legacy stuff?

It's more than "legacy stuff" as well. People always hear "Java" and immediately think "legacy application". I find it quite amusing. It's this weird idea that somehow nobody would or could ever write a new application in Java. Yet here we are with RedHat Thorntail (previously Swarm) and other modern frameworks written in Java and ready to deliver solid large-scale performance.

I like it that way. Keeps my rate high while doing trivial CRUD applications.

On a serious note, I still think Java has one if not the best ecosystem of any language. Fast JVM, lots of high quality Open Source libraries/frameworks, tooling (IDEs, monitoring, debugging) and if you have a problem you probably are not the first one and usually find an answer.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#87

Post by moocowtruck »

kamaal wrote: post #46
sytelus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only languages that can match that ecosystem are Perl and Python. And may be Javascript. Nope. Python as well as Perl are pretty slow compared to Java on JVM. To replace Java you need to move to either C# or Go. The key thing would be licensing terms and available frameworks. Smart CIOs with lots of Java baggage in their companies should be investing in transition to C# given the state of things. It would be pr…

Very interesting to see Go as a choice. On sheer library numbers Go would still come short compared to Perl/Python. But Go's simplicity is actually huge accidental positive. One of things that I remember from the past is applications used to be developed as giant Monoliths. Which is why you needed all that OO, templates and generics related magic to work with. These days people don't develop applications that way any…

go is simplistic, not simple

Re: Java Is Still Free

#88

Post by simion314 »

lmm wrote: post #84
simion314 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some rules if you want to re implement Java, but it is possible since we have many alternatives to chose from. T^he main point is to pass all the needed tests to confirm your re-implementation is compatible and not do what MS tried to do (embrace,extend,extinguish)

You missed that you will be arbitrarily denied the ability to actually run those tests if you're trying to make a true open source implementation - see Apache Harmony.

That is old news, do you have an uptodate link?

Re: Java Is Still Free

#89

Post by dajohnson89 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #80

The bottom line isn't all that complicated. If you've never bought a commercial support contract just switch to OpenJDK (via AdoptOpenJDK if you want standalone binaries) and be on your merry way. Which giant company(s) are taking the lead role in maintaining the project will change, but that should have little impact on you. If you do have a commercial support agreement, you can keep doing what you've been doing wit…

Is there any situation in which using Oracle's JDK is preferable to OpenJDK, if you know that you dont need commercial support? E.g., maybe Oracle releases patches more frequently, or has some libraries that are more performant.

Re: Java Is Still Free

#90

Post by ivanche »

iuwhagtr wrote: post #52
tannhaeuser wrote: post #9

Hint: if you want to get a discussion going, or, in fact, have your article read in the first place, don't put it on Google docs, nor medium via link shorteners for that matter.

Why not? Google Docs does not show any stupid popovers, ads or anything

It's blocked by many companies/employers.
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