Live data from Hacker News

Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

wsj.com

51–60 of 72 posts

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#51
post #12

> Then they came for monosodium glutamate. Even though food companies say it is harmless, they eventually pulled it from many products, because that’s what the customer demanded. So? If there isn't a good reason for it to be in the food, then it probably shouldn't be. On the other hand, if there is a good reason (e.g. the food lasts longer), then I see no reason why not let the market decide what they prefer. In gene…

> On the other hand, if there is a good reason (e.g. the food lasts longer), then I see no reason why not let the market decide what they prefer.

There is a good reason for it to be in food, and a good reason for it to not be in food. As it happens, the reason for it to be in food is that it makes food taste better, and the reason for it to not be in food is because people were falsely told it was unhealthy. So the market is deciding, but as a result of fear-mongering and racism, not based on what makes for better food. That’s still the market deciding, and that’s just how the market works sometimes.

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#52
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more north you go, the blander/crappier the food gets, mostly due to the weather. It's more complicated than that. Cultural reasons are a huge factor in why Western food is so bland: > Serving richly spiced stews was no longer a status symbol for Europe's wealthiest families — even the middle classes could afford to spice up their grub. "So the elite recoiled from the increasing popularity of spices," Ray says.…

I do believe the parent did mean specifically the base taste is less bland, independent of cultural factors. For someone who hasn’t experienced the taste difference one might think ‘really, how much better can a tomato taste?’- but no the difference really is substantial, esp when comparing, say, a North American tomato and one from southern Europe.

[deleted]

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#53
If the food industry were more responsible and didn't do everything it can to reduce costs at the expense of selling crap, maybe there wouldn't be so many "picky eaters".

Obviously no common citizen can track a list of 20 ingredients and know which of them are the worst offenders and which are harmless. But there is a clear correlation between processed products containing lots of weird-sounding ingredients and products that taste bland, upset the stomach and/or are unhealthy. So in absence of detailed knowledge about what each individual ingredient is, it's a perfectly rational and sensible decision to prefer the food with fewer, and well-known, ingredients. I have a scientific education, know what dihydrogen monoxide is, and still do that, because I don't trust the industry and regulations enough* when it comes to eating an unknown ingredient. And the industry can cry me a river.

*And this is in Europe, where at least there is some more regulation... in the US, the same applies multiplied by 10.

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#54
There's quite a few comments in here about how food scientists shouldn't have put so many things in foods to begin with. Well, look. There's a handful of reasons anything ends up intentionally added to large-scale industrial foods:

1) To improve taste, 2) To improve texture (or to preserve texture for products -- emulsifiers and binders added to keep dressings from separating, for instance), 3) To improve shelf life and preserve the food, 4) To stand in for something more expensive (artificial vanilla in place of the real thing, or HFCS in place of sugar that has import tariffs on it), or 5) To improve health outcomes. (Think of cereals fortified with vitamins, or iodized salts -- iodine deficiency was a major health threat until the introduction of iodized salt).

Yes, things that improve taste aren't always good for you -- they're often refined carbs or fats or both. But it turns out that in order to get a bottle of ranch dressing that can sit on the shelf for weeks before being purchased, last for months in your fridge, and still have a creamy integration of oil and water (things that want to separate!) without having to be stirred or shaken every use. If you don't want to buy that ranch dressing, that's fine. You can make your own, or make a vinaigrette. But there's not some vast conspiracy to add chemicals to food. And people add thickeners and emulsifiers to food when they cook at home all the time. "Xanthan gum" is not any less healthy for you than agar-agar or gelatine, and it's used for basically the same thing, it just has different properties. (Gelatin is removed from commercial broths and stocks all the time because it makes it unappealing to pour out of the carton at room temperature, for instance. This is one reason making your own stock and broth yields better soup.)

And the upshot of all of this is that we've made lots of foods cheaper, more plentiful and less time-consuming to prepare than at any other point in human history. That's had real effects on society -- not all of them good, see our obesity epidemic in the US, but on the whole, you can see what people were doing, it wasn't a plot to give us TEH CHEMICALS, it was an effort to give a civilization unparalleled amounts of food security and let people specialize in life outside of the home. (There's an entire tangent about the intersection of technical and social progress, and the interaction between convenience foods and women being freed from being homemakers to entering the workforce and being independent.)

Is all of it good? No. Would it be good for people to become more educated and make better decisions about what to eat here? Yes. But that's not what the article is talking about. There's parallels to medicine here -- on one hand, the pharma industry is clearly devoted to profits above all else, and they do all sorts of infuriating things in both the market (slightly altering drugs in order to make new ones that are just as effective but still under patent, jacking up the price of insulin, etc.) and in science (there's tons of scientific studies you can't trust because pharma companies will run a bunch of studies and file drawer the ones that don't help them). It would be better if people could make more informed decisions about health, if the market wasn't distorted to misalign the incentives of consumers and producers, if there was more transparency and better science. But the opposition to commercially-funded pharma studies is not principled and it does not improve your health outcomes. It's stuff like the anti-vax crusade that is letting diseases largely eradicated come back, and Gweneth Paltrow selling folk remedies to the gullible and clueless. The same thing is true in nutrition -- people who are decrying chemical additives in food or pitching you on fad diets are not trying to help you fight against large agribusiness, they are exploiting your skepticism of large agribusiness in order to enrich themselves at your expense. MSG is fine. "Nitrate free" cured meats have more nitrates (but naturally occurring ones, from celery!) than ones not so labelled. Produce labelled as "organic" often come with more pesticides than regular produce because of how you have to grow organic produce and still get high yields, meaning that they can be less safe for many people. A general rule of thumb is that if you don't trust a company when they're putting xantham gum in your food, you shouldn't trust what they're replacing it with, either, even if the name sounds more natural or some food blogger is telling you that xanthan gum causes sterility or whatever.

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#55
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are about as smart as they have always been. The world is just getting more complicated around them.

Not true. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2146752-we-seem-to-be-g...

That article isn't convincing to me. IQ testing has known issues and if they didn't control for age then the assertion might apply to the general populace right now but not as a general trend that will hold over time, especially since Millennials and Gen Z together are much larger than Boomers. The fertility argument is dumb IMO because while intelligence is heritable, environmental factors and education play at least as large of a role in ability to perform on an IQ test. Also that trend, if it is anything other than a blip (because the wealthiest may actually tend to have more children) just began do there would not be much reason to think gene shift would be a strong factor in IQ trends.

https://qz.com/1125805/the-reason-the-richest-women-in-the-u...

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#56
post #54

There's quite a few comments in here about how food scientists shouldn't have put so many things in foods to begin with. Well, look. There's a handful of reasons anything ends up intentionally added to large-scale industrial foods: 1) To improve taste, 2) To improve texture (or to preserve texture for products -- emulsifiers and binders added to keep dressings from separating, for instance), 3) To improve shelf life…

I forgot one reason from the list -- to improve color.

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#57
post #9

From Albania here, (2nd world European country, aka still developing). Due to its mediterranean weather (1), everything raised locally tastes better. Local food is full of flavor, and things made artisan-ally and locally are still good. Even something simple like a 'Tiramisu' tastes better there, most likely because things are still made to be consumed within a day, and not last for ages. Other countries are similar…

> Warm weather is important. eg. Hothouse/greenhouse tomatoes or cucumber are never as flavorful as field raised and ripped ones. The more north you go, the blander/crappier the food gets, mostly due to the weather.

It's not quite that clear-cut. For example, strawberries are sweeter and less bland when grown in cooler climates [1]:

> Increased in growth temperatures resulted in decreased fruit quality including soluble solids (SSC), titratable acids (TA), SSC/TA ratio, and ascorbic acid (AA) content in the fruit.

Swedish tomatoes are, on the other hand, of course crap when compared to southern European tomatoes. But from what I've read that's suspected to have more to do with light than temperature.

1: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5ace/a1295f3898659fb0afdfab...

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#58
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would make sense if the deciding factor would be consumer's health. Instead, it's the appearance of being "natural", which is not in itself better than something synthetic or modified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

I think consumers are honestly trying to be healthier, but the amount of effort required to understand food science is way too high. What consumers are told is healthy vs unhealthy changes from year to year. First, saturated fat was considered bad for you so they were removed in favor of trans fats. Then trans fats were considered unhealthy so manufacturers replaced them with palm oil. Then we found out palm oil isn'…

The food industry benefits from, and therefore desires, this situation. As a result of the confusion, many people throw up their hands, and just eat whatever they want, or avoid one bad thing but gorge themselves on another. People just want an excuse to indulge, and conflicting, ever-changing studies are perfect for that. The food industry, of course, helps out by muddying the waters with poorly-designed, misleading studies.

In reality, sugar, dairy, meat, salt, saturated fat (even coconut oil), and other processed oils, are all bad for you in different ways. A good heuristic for your diet is to maximize the amount of whole plant-based foods you eat. "whole" just means not having good things taken out -- so whole grains instead of processed, whole fruit instead of juices and jams which have had peel and fiber removed and maybe sugar added, avocados instead of avocado oil, etc. Even preferring whole beans to tofu which has had fiber removed -- though tofu isn't bad for you, it's just that whole beans, or whole-bean products like tempeh, are better.

The longest-living people on the planet all eat some variant of this diet -- mostly or entirely whole plant foods, with minimal meat, dairy, added sugar, oil, etc. Unfortunately, as many places become wealthier and more westernized, people tend to start to copy the American diet, which brings with it all the typical the American health problems -- diabetes, heart disease, increased cancer risk, and all sorts of other inflammatory diseases.

I don't generally trust scientific reporting on nutrition. Instead, I like this site, nutritionfacts.org, where they have a team of researchers that read pretty much every nutrition study and analyze them very critically, gradually building up a picture of what we should eat for good health.

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#59
post #30

I truly think this is because picky eaters are easy to market to; they pay attention to flashy advertising rather then hard science. We have an entire generation of people that think GMOs are somehow harmful and also ignore the tremendous environmental impact of so called organic foods. The same people taking birth control are reaching for grass fed hormone free milk and beef.

I think it's a cognitive reaction to safety. Fear is certainly there due to the unknown. People will retreat to what they feel is safe and easy to understand i.e. "natural" food. Little do they know natural food is GMO! The crops that survived today did so by natural genetic mutations for the crops that had the best ability to survive. Humans just took advantage of that fact and sped up the process a bit to our advan…

This is not a very good argument. You could easily repurpose it to claim that nuclear weapons are nothing to be feared... After all, radioactive uranium and even nuclear reactors happen naturally, humans just optimise the process a bit!

Re: Food Scientists Are Getting Fed Up with Picky Eaters

#60
post #36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. MSG is what gives food that amazing umami flavor. It's in more foods than we realize. It's the same as adding any other spice. It's important to revert to a scientific approach to understanding why something shouldn't be in food.

A guy at work thought msg was a neurotoxin. I'm like, "uh, no, it's an amino acid,a normal constituent of every protein you eat..." This is a guy with a master's in a technical field. I honestly don't know how we got here.

Does he like Doritos?

https://www.seriouseats.com/2012/06/science-of-chips-ingredi...

Post reply on HN