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Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

blog.joinmastodon.org

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#61
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people confuse boundaries with bubbles. When they tell me I'm living in a bubble because I use an instance with rules and instance blocks, what they want is for the street preacher to be able to chase me down the sidewalk yelling fire and brimstone at me. "I wouldn't personally do that," they insist, "but people should be able to!" They want to be able to harass people online the way they do offline, and on less…

One of the ways instance blocks are used, in practice, is to discourage other instances from enforcing boundaries. For example, one of the biggest and oldest Mastodon instances recently blocked an entire up-and-coming instance because they banned one person who has a trail of allegations that they solicited underage kids for sex. A number of other, smaller instances also block instances that ban another alleged seria…

Does the functionality of blocking just a single user from an instance not exist with Mastodon?

This does bring up an important point however, in that the largest instances that will exist may not be the one that curates and manages the instance/ecosystem/users on the ecosystem as well or as reasonably, however creates a space (or bubble) of popular reaction - say being only "80%" compassionate vs. fully understanding. For example, what if a convicted rapist has done their prison time? I feel this would have very different responses based on the nation and culture and how much or how little actual rehabilitation and treatment people receive, if that society trusts the outcome of the system or not. I believe that keeping "unhealthy" people separate from "healthy" people will prevent them from learning - and of course has the potential to allow the unhealthy to learn further bad behaviours or reenforce ones they already have; this doesn't mean we should design for a free-for-all system like Twitter and Facebook are various degrees of. It comes down to compassion - which includes not dismissing or forgetting about people, even if they're not people we'd want as our friends or family.

In the case of a user who simply has a "trail" of accusations for unacceptable behaviour, do we foster "guilty until proven innocent" as an acceptable behaviour - blocking that user from society's online interactions - or should we foster more of a "innocent until proven guilty" - while perhaps keeping an eye on people who are accused of certain behaviour? If the a little girl accuses her brother of stealing the cookie from the cookie jar, however the boy claims it didn't happen - and there's no proof, it's not fair to me if to punish either child until there's proof: either the sister took the cookie and is lying, or the brother took the cookie and is lying; you could ban them from the kitchen with the cookie jar, though if they're ever left alone and there's no evidence like video to check back on, then either child could still take another cookie.

I then wonder though, if there become more trusted and larger instances that do put the effort (and cost) into curation and managing the community (the family of society), then smaller instances will and can tap into that network - however then not contributing or covering any of the cost. How does this imbalance balance out, or does it need to, even? Does it become a question as to whether people who want accountability are willing to pay a small amount to pay the costs of such moderation vs. people simply hoping someone else deals with it - a bystander effect?

I wonder if the Mastodon community or founder have any thoughts or beliefs to this? Likewise, what happens if you have a whole bunch of instances where people are in their bubble of communities, perhaps with less critical thinking time spent and more indoctrination, where then propaganda can easily be distributed without any potential to filter it out and protect the whole as easily; of course solid in-person, real-life community and connectedness is the only way to counter this, including developing deep trust with individuals who you trust are thoughtful and such.

I'm still not sold on that decentralized is the safest option, however it perhaps can help counter against bad actors who seek control of systems; in fact it could act as a canary if the powers that be attempt to make decentralized systems illegal - as part of an effort to control (and perhaps censor). However, so long as the community is educated as a whole, and is hyperaware of these characteristics and readies to counter it in full, to hold the line for peace and justice, then we're on the right path. In contrast to decentralization, if we look at Apple's ecosystem, trust and governance and good design, forethought, plays an important role in success - though everyone in that ecosystem is "paying their dues" via profit Apple receives. And contrasting that further to Facebook, whereby they profit off of the manipulative aspect of ads and with practically no vetting or oversight.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#62
post #30

I'm finding Mastodon (I'm at https://nerdculture.de/@kragen at the moment) to be much more pleasant than Twitter, and much richer than IRC. The vicious culture war stuff on Twitter almost doesn't show up in my Mastodon timeline at all.

Your anecdote is valid but so is wil Wheaton's http://wilwheaton.net/2018/08/the-world-is-a-terrible-place-...

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#63
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On bans, there are frequent waves of new users who migrate away from Twitter to mastodon because they're told that mastodon has instances that are more suited to their personal (typically) political inclinations, and that the other side isn't permitted here and that discussion is more reasoned. It's not really true. What really happens is that people are told that mastodon is the land of milk and honey, and people of…

> people end up on hyper-polarised instances where war is waged with blocks, bans, and federation filters > here you can build all the walls you want to isolate yourself from anyone who doesn't completely agree with you Shouldn't isolation of opposing viewpoints lead to less war overall? If everyone is interacting in the same space, every controversial post can potentially provoke an aggressive reply, and each respon…

No, it can lead to a protected bubble of indoctrination and propaganda spreading efficiently without any countering - which then spreads into the real-world, where real clashes and violence is materialized. Even if the populations were on both or could both move to their own isolated islands, eventually a bad actor is likely to try to take control for their own benefit (and then perpetuated, whether by something like a military-industrial complex, or other); and when land isn't an issue then populations can stay separate enough, however yeah, someone always seems to want more and invade, and so at minimum you have to plan to protect against such potential threats - and without using fear tactics to control or manipulate a population.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#64
post #7

I currently run my own Mastodon server, and wrote some scripts if you want to run your own on Vultr: https://github.com/sumdog/bee2/ I'm really glad I set this up. Mastodon is an interesting platform; like one big lopsided chatroom. You do have to follow a lot of strangers to get started (unless you can convince a bunch of your friends to join). People also go pretty ban crazy on there. I've been called a "Nazi stoog…

On bans, there are frequent waves of new users who migrate away from Twitter to mastodon because they're told that mastodon has instances that are more suited to their personal (typically) political inclinations, and that the other side isn't permitted here and that discussion is more reasoned. It's not really true. What really happens is that people are told that mastodon is the land of milk and honey, and people of…

This is my concern as well. It may be what will naturally be though (yin-yang and all that), and thankfully there are ways to get eyes into a bubble even if it's protected to get intelligence on what violent activities may be attempting to be rallied. The interesting and perhaps other fortunate piece to these communities being online is that everyone is quickly mobile (unless under strict watch and censorship locally through physical communication channels) - and so people are less stuck in a community if they realize it is a bubble - and are also more easily able to be reached. I just posted more related thoughts in a comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18213574

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#65
Does Mastodon suffer from the same problems as Reddit in terms of censorship? I've been part of a few communities that have been banned or quarantined. I'm looking for a platform where freedom of speech is something everyone can have, regardless of opinion.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#66

Does Mastodon suffer from the same problems as Reddit in terms of censorship? I've been part of a few communities that have been banned or quarantined. I'm looking for a platform where freedom of speech is something everyone can have, regardless of opinion.

Reddit is a centralized proprietary product, Mastodon is not. The worst that can happen to a user in terms of censorship is:

* Your instance banning you, which means you can just join another instance. The hardest thing about Mastodon is chosing an instance whose administration you can trust. The reason the service is valuable and important is that barring any instance being trustable to you you can always start your own.

* Another instance banning you (or your entire instance) which just means users on that instance don't see you in the fediverse. This can lead to complications where swarms of instances cooperate their ban lists and thus getting banned from one of them can see you cut out of a swathe of the network, but in practice those using mastodon pride themselves on not centralizing and thus there is limited interest in centralizing moderation like this in the first place.

Of note there are degrees of that second kind of ban. The lightest form is that you or your instance just doesn't show up in timelines - users can still find you by other means and follow you. The most severe is the total noop communication with that instance server which means its users don't exist to the instance doing the banning.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#67
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's dangerous for programmers to focus on building a thing rather than serving their users. It seems Mastodon is an example of programmers actually building something with real ambitions rather than just trying to make big money by trying to form an addiction for their users.

Sure, and that influences the choice of metrics. I think chasing things like user active minutes (UAM) can lead to pathological development. But for a social product, "real ambitions" must include people a) using it, and b) being happy they are using it. But my point is that features and signups can't be ends in themselves, as those are not real ambitions.

I understand what you're saying. The only counter point I'd put forward is it's purposefully playing to the ego mind for attention - arguably deserved or otherwise - to draw more people to trying it out. Likewise, you have to start somewhere. Hopefully over time they can start measuring and reporting on metrics with more meaning to them, which will require them also explaining that meaning to educate people - which will give us all an understanding as to what their understanding is. I still don't feel I understand the ecosystem well enough to say if I like it or not, I do like observing different models though to see how and if they work, what problems they solve or don't - so I am enjoying Mastodon seemingly gaining traction; it at minimum leads to discussion on HN.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#68
post #16

Aren't these all vanity metrics? [1] Features are swell, and registered users are nice, in that it indicates somebody was at least curious. But how many of those 1,627,557 registered users are, say, active at least once a week for the last 3 months? What's the NPS of Mastodon users after 7, 30, and 90 days? I'd love to see them succeed. But I think it's dangerous for programmers to focus on building a thing rather th…

>But I think it's dangerous for programmers to focus on building a thing rather than serving their users. Dangerous for whom? Mastodon isn't a product, it's an open source project. More active users is nice, but isn't fundamental to the project; it will continue as long as there are people interested in working on it.

Your theory here seems to be that usage isn't the point, that people writing code is all that matters.

I think that's a fair measure for a repository of code golf examples, or something where it's just a bunch of people scratching their own itches. But Mastodon is an inherently social product. I don't believe it has any meaning without usage. And clearly, the Mastodon people know that, which is why they talk about the number of registered users.

But the danger with vanity metrics is that a lot of effort can get wasted. That wasted effort can snowball. If a product has a lot of features that nobody uses, it can make future additions and product evolution harder. That can also discourage adoption. And I think the additional danger for Mastodon is that as the most prominent of the open-source social network alternatives, its success or failure will be seen as the success or failure of alternatives to Twitter, etc.

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#69
post #16

Aren't these all vanity metrics? [1] Features are swell, and registered users are nice, in that it indicates somebody was at least curious. But how many of those 1,627,557 registered users are, say, active at least once a week for the last 3 months? What's the NPS of Mastodon users after 7, 30, and 90 days? I'd love to see them succeed. But I think it's dangerous for programmers to focus on building a thing rather th…

Stats for the whole federation (from servers that agree to share their stats): https://the-federation.info/ Last month active users: 478516

Ah, great. There are definitely some non-vanity metrics in there. Thanks!

Re: Mastodon’s 2 Year Anniversary

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed the rules of Mastodon.social: https://mastodon.social/about/more It's the default, and most instances stick with it. None of the items seem controversial. Which one stands out as a problem to you?

As an example, that one will ban extreme (and not so extreme) right-wingers. But you also have the opposite in other servers. And of course those servers refuse to federate with others. So there obviously are no flame wars like on Twitter... All ideologies are separated. The reason there are no flame wars is not that Mastodon users are somewhat enlightened, as opposed to the Twitter rabble. Instead, clashes are avoid…

Can you give me some examples of a server with extreme right-wingers? That way I can find out whether my server allows me to follow them or not.
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