Live data from Hacker News

The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

medium.com

281–290 of 315 posts

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#281
post #56

I like how we have an article explaining the rationale behind dark matter and the scientific principles that lead to the conclusion that it exists, but most of the threads here are simple declarations that no, they must all simply be wrong or not considering some simple alternative. Can people maybe, just maybe not assume that scientists are idiots or, as once dead commenter puts it, charlatans? If you disagree with…

I like how the linked article is a laundry list of reasons to believe in dark matter but doesn't mention any problems with particle dark matter, MOND alternatives, or that the consensus on dark matter is far from settled, etc. And oh yeah anyone who questions this onesided cheerleading is strawmanned into an antiscience quack.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think of the possibility of 'dark sector' interactions?[1] The idea that dark matter might consist of a class of self-interacting particles, and that we might be embedded in a universe full of hidden phenomena as rich as the ordinary-matter phenomena that are visible to us (e.g. dark 'planets', dark 'stars', dark 'galaxies', or something very different) was always intriguing to me, but it seems that a con…

> What do you think of the possibility of 'dark sector' interactions? It remains a possibility. It does not seem to be required by observation, though. Worse, if you move away from parsimonious non-interacting quantum field theories to more complex models, you have to suppress a lot of symmetries that inevitably produce observables which are not seen. Most people working with general relativity just use non-interacti…

This is exactly the comprehensive reply I was hoping for, thanks. I dug up a Carroll post on the arrow of time and the big bang for this thread which turned out to be from 2004, so I know the feeling.

If there are any other non-experts like me this far down this reply chain who are interested in dark sector speculation, in addition to raattgift's excellent links I'd recommend the Wikipedia page on the Lightest Supersymmetric Particle [1] and Rob Reid's recent podcast with dark matter researcher Priya Natarajan [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightest_supersymmetric_partic... [2] https://after-on.com/episodes-31-60/036

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#283
post #94

" The theory. This tells us that around every galaxy and cluster of galaxies, there should be an extremely large, diffuse halo of dark matter. This dark matter should have practically no “collisions” with normal matter — upper limits indicate that it would take light-years of solid lead for a dark matter particle to have a 50/50 shot of interacting just once — there should be plenty of dark matter particles passing u…

When matter particles interact they release energy that we can detect in form of x-ray or light. When dark matter particles interacts with matter or dark matter, they don’t seem to release any energy. Their only giving away clue is gravitational effect. If dark matter does exist and can be directly detected then we are looking at very new physics.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#284
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the universe consists of 85% of the stuff it would seem that it should be easy to find. How did you infer this? We are bathed in gravitational waves but they weren’t “easy” to find. > Occams razor should apply as usual. So what would be your razored explanation for the gravitational anomalies that point to the presence of matter we cannot see?

Our understanding of gravity might be completely wrong. If 85% of the gravity is unexplainable that seems like a pretty safe bet. Maybe it just behaves very differently at galactic scale. Much like the aether, it seemed most likely that light traveled through a medium until it turned out that it probably doesn't.

> Our understanding of gravity might be completely wrong.

Why do you think this hypothesis is simpler than the existence of matter we haven’t detected yet?

> If 85% of the gravity is unexplainable that seems like a pretty safe bet.

It’s not unexplainable. There are plenty of candidates for dark matter, such as WIMPs, MACHOs, and axions.

See here for a discussion: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2012/05/09/dark-mat...

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#285
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sigh If you drop some neutrons on the ground, they will go through the ground some short distance until they interact with something, most likely via the weak interaction. Photons do scatter off neutrons due to various effects, but the cross-section is really very low. I haven't checked the numbers, but I suspect that it's more than low enough that this type of scattering does not rule out neutrons as dark matter. (P…

Fair point r.e. low cross section. Think the main reason neutrons are ruled out as DM because free neutrons decay, they have a half-life of ~10 minutes. So if DM was neutron, nearly all of it would have decayed into protons, electrons & neutrinos, the former two of which we would definitely be able to see.

Baryonic matter doesn’t have to be free neutrons, cold baryonic matter can be stable we have found it already just as we have found brown dwarfs there just isn’t enough of it to make up for the missing mass hence it’s not a likely candidate at this point.

PS Protons are also baryons and are stable.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be baryonic matter, because baryons are made of quarks, which carry electric charge, and therefore interact with light, xrays etc. But we don't see dark matter scattering or absorbing the x-rays & whatnot emitted by stars, nebulae etc. Hence the 'dark' in dark matter. So it has to be made of particles which have no electric charge. The only such longlived particle we know of is the neutrino, but these guys t…

> longlived Why couldn't it be short-lived?

Because the decay process will likely emit particles we can detect. Also if they are short lived we now need a mechanism which constantly generates which ever matter it is which is going to be complex since we don’t really have mechanisms that create matter (at least in any substantial amounts) in the universe other than the Big Bang.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#287
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter doesn't physically interact with itself or regular matter, so it doesn't "clump" the way regular matter does. A particle of dark matter will fall towards the Sun or Earth, but it doesn't stop when it gets there - it just carries right on through, with just as much energy as it had before. We expect there to be a dark matter "wind" passing through the solar system at galactic speeds, so it doesn't stick ar…

In general, though, shouldn’t we have dark matter “orbiting” massive bodies bound by their gravitational field?

Dark matter is a supersolid that fills 'empty' space, strongly interacts with ordinary matter and is displaced by ordinary matter. What is referred to geometrically as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter. The state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter is gravity.

The supersolid dark matter displaced by a galaxy pushes back, causing the stars in the outer arms of the galaxy to orbit the galactic center at the rate in which they do.

Displaced supersolid dark matter is curved spacetime

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#288
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, though, shouldn’t we have dark matter “orbiting” massive bodies bound by their gravitational field?

Dark matter is a supersolid that fills 'empty' space, strongly interacts with ordinary matter and is displaced by ordinary matter. What is referred to geometrically as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter. The state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter is gravity. The supersolid dark matter displaced by a galaxy pushes back, causing the stars…

Yeah, we get it. You believe in the ether. Perhaps you would prefer to call it "the firmament." The only people who believe this are certain fringe (read that pseudoscience) speculators who will never be taken seriously because they ignore the actual data, and have only a rudimentary understanding of the rigorously verified physics involved.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#289
post #171

How do you square the following notions? a) dark matter does not interact with measurable matter b) proof of dark matter's existence derived by the measurable, relative, interaction of mass and energy

Summarizing on the fly, so necessarily wrong in details: Regular matter interacts via the four forces: strong interaction, weak interaction, electromagnetism and gravity. Strong interaction: binds fundamental particles together to make atoms. In every day terms, it’s what makes mass, mass. Weak interaction and electromagnetism: causes radioactive decay and EM radiation (photons). In every day terms, it’s how we get l…

> Photons don’t have mass so don’t cause gravity but are affected by it.

They do have momentum though, and their momentum flux is encoded in the stress-energy tensor, which up to constant factors forms the right-hand-side (the "source" or "matter" side) of the Einstein Field Equations of General Relativity.

So photons are a source of curvature, and thus to say that they "don't cause gravity" is wrong.

This has been known since the late 1920s, and was made very clear in some correspondence between Einstein and Bohr on the topic of "Einstein's box" (box of light).

See e.g. the following subsection (and the figure it refers to) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr–Einstein_debates#Einstein...

A more extreme case is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)

In flat spacetime, we can alternatively start by considering the special-relativistic dispersion equation, E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (pc)^2, m being intrinsic mass and p being momentum. Usually you see this as E = mc^2, taking square roots and considering the centre of momentum to be fixed. When you let a beam of light (or even a photon) travel across a set of coordinates, rather than keeping it fixed at some coordinate (e.g. the origin), p is nonzero, even though m is always zero. Since (pc)^2 is positive, so is E^2, so even though light is massless, it has (frame-dependent) energy. Indeed, being more formal, one says that light has momentum-energy. A further relationship E = hf, h being Planck's constant and f being the frequency of the beam of light (or just a photon), also underlines this: E = hf = pc^2, so the momentum of light relates to it's frequency, or alternatively it's wavelength (as f = c / lambda, where lambda is the wavelength). Light's frequency is observer-dependent because of relativistic doppler effects or equivalently light's wavelength is observer-dependent because of relativistic length contraction. (And this should not be surprising as even in high school physics you will have learned that kinetic energy is a frame-dependent dependent quantity. Relativistic kinetic energy is E.)

When we add gentle curvature and use suitable coordinates, E is simply promoted into the time_time component of the stress-energy tensor. (Gory details if you look up "comma-goes-to-semicolon rule", which you can find discussed here https://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/March01/Carroll3/Carroll... or in most decent textbooks on General Relativity. Carroll prefers to call it the energy-momentum tensor instead of the stress-energy tensor; they're the same thing.)

Since any nonzero component of the stress-energy tensor serves as a source of curvature, then light must generate curvature.

You were half-right though: photons do indeed respond to curvature.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#290
post #288
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter is a supersolid that fills 'empty' space, strongly interacts with ordinary matter and is displaced by ordinary matter. What is referred to geometrically as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter. The state of displacement of the supersolid dark matter is gravity. The supersolid dark matter displaced by a galaxy pushes back, causing the stars…

Yeah, we get it. You believe in the ether. Perhaps you would prefer to call it "the firmament." The only people who believe this are certain fringe (read that pseudoscience) speculators who will never be taken seriously because they ignore the actual data, and have only a rudimentary understanding of the rigorously verified physics involved.

Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Quantum_vacuum

> "the empty vacuum of space … is filled with 'stuff' ... The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether."

Laughlin’s ‘stuff’ is the smoothly distributed, strongly interacting, supersolid dark matter that fills ‘empty’ space and is displaced by ordinary matter.

Einstein: Ether and Relativity http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Extras/Einstein_ether.ht...

> "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable"

Einstein’s ether is the supersolid dark matter that fills ‘empty’ space and is displaced by ordinary matter.

Post reply on HN