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Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

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Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#111

Post by thomasmeeks »

illumin8 wrote: post #78
wisam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do think is the reason that most managers in technology are bad? I tend to think of management as abstraction. A mid-level manager provides an abstraction of the work for high-level management and at the same time is provided an abstraction of the work by the low-level managers or engineers. Assuming that my understanding is right, are these abstractions leaky? is the lack of technical knowledge the reason why ma…

I think it's because most technology managers are too disconnected from the actual work, and don't understand what their employees actually do. Obviously, there are a few examples of tech leaders that remain hands on, but it seems that when most engineers transition into leadership, after 2-3 years, they've become so disconnected from anything hands on that they are just bad. I'll give an example: a software developm…

I agree with everything you wrote, and have found that by and large companies don’t reward the good managers you described. The lack of recognition gets exhausting and eventually those good managers either leave management or start focusing on managing up for their own sake.

It has made me extraordinarily picky about any future management positions I may pick up.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#112

Post by ddebernardy »

jcroll wrote: post #98
Yenderman wrote: post #56

When I was 30, people just looked at me and assumed I was a competent software engineer because I looked exactly like a very senior software engineer, and I presented myself in that way. But I was very junior, having made a recent career change. Yet they paid me like a prince, and I rose so rapidly through the ranks that I became an executive. Now I'm 50, and my company folded and I went to the curb, and am looking f…

> remember what they do to engineers that are over 40. May I ask what do you mean by this? I'm an engineer entering my late 30's, what is it exactly that I have to prepare for by the time I enter my 40s?

They eventually get fired because too old/too expensive. Get into management/team leadership in a way or another asap.

You're probably not feeling this right now because the economy is overheated. But be wary of the next recession if you're still doing the same job - however much better - than a junior for several times their salary.

(If you've specialized and valuable skills that are extremely hard to replace you should be fine. But if you're doing generic stuff it's time to take a cold hard look at what your career will be in the next 25 years.)

And just to be clear in case one might think this is ageism at work: having seen the difference in productivity, I'd hire a 40+ senior over 3 juniors in a heartbeat most of the time, but budget doesn't always allow one to do so.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#113

Post by lowdest »

jcroll wrote: post #98
Yenderman wrote: post #56

When I was 30, people just looked at me and assumed I was a competent software engineer because I looked exactly like a very senior software engineer, and I presented myself in that way. But I was very junior, having made a recent career change. Yet they paid me like a prince, and I rose so rapidly through the ranks that I became an executive. Now I'm 50, and my company folded and I went to the curb, and am looking f…

> remember what they do to engineers that are over 40. May I ask what do you mean by this? I'm an engineer entering my late 30's, what is it exactly that I have to prepare for by the time I enter my 40s?

I believe the end of that joke is "they take them out and shoot them."

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#114

Post by liftbigweights »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #70
liftbigweights wrote: post #52

Why not retire and contribute to open source? You can set your own schedule and speak to whomever you want or no one at all. It amazes me that people in their 40s are working as software developers. Did everyone gamble their money away? 20 years in software developement is easily a few million in the bank + retirement account + home. Why not retire?

This is harsh but true. I am an average 32 years old software engineer in the Bay Area, and in my average 8 years career I amassed roughly $1.2M by diligently saving, investing in index funds and living frugally. My real hope is that by the time I’m in my mid 40s this amount, including the new savings, will have at least doubled (if not 3X), and I’ll be able to retire or take some very light job in a cheaper area, no…

Yeah. I'm surprised that I'm downvoted. If you are clearing six figures ( most software devs should in this environment ), you could max out your 401k/ira/etc ( $40K ) to lower your tax basis and then save half the remaining income easily. Especially if you are single with no kids.

My biggest problem was hitting the max and not being able to shelter more income from taxes.

$40K per year in retirement + $20K or $30K in saving and interest + capital gains will easily make you a multimillionaire over 20 years. I don't think people understand how long 20 years really is and how consistent savings starts to add up.

As long as you don't gamble away your money or do something stupid with it, a six figure salary as a software engineer should make you are multimillionare ( in assets ) by your 40s.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#115

Post by vram22 »

pjmlp wrote: post #81
itgoon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a lot of success with having Github projects to answer that question. "Look for yourself" is a great comeback. It doesn't even have to be original, or particularly useful. Just something that shows that you understand what modern development is about: neat code, good docs, unit tests, regular commits. Use modern libraries and idioms. Heck, I don't think anyplace has even tried the code.

I try to do the same, however it is an up hill battle with HR if the github contents happen to be in distinct domains that what the CV states.

The problem there is not with your Github contents. The problem is with the kind of HR staff who are not technically knowledgeable enough [1] to understand that skills in other domains can translate to skills in the needed domains. Should consider looking for jobs where the technical leadership do the hiring or at least have a large say in it, as in, they are the ones who vet you technically, not the HR. Many HR people just use a buzzword match (Java 5 years exp? no? out!) and reject blindly based on that. (Cue HR jokes like them putting out job descs. for 6 year of Rails exp. when Rails was 2 years old - substitute any other tech too, same story.) HR should only be involved for talks like starting date, perks, joining docs, etc. There are jobs or contracting roles like that, mainly with startups, and I have gotten such gigs. Even in some large enterprise companies where I worked earlier, the technical and managerial parts of the interviews were mostly done by the tech leader or tech managers in the company. I've been interviewed by tech leaders even when I was a junior dev. And that is not uncommon. All depends on the kind of company you apply to.

[1] And this is why the "hiring is broken" topic comes up often on HN and other forums, because it is so. Even management, many times, have a shortsighted and wrong view towards what hiring (and related stuff, like what you do after you join) is (or should be) all about.

Edited for grammar and to add stuff.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#117

Post by vram22 »

lowdest wrote: post #113
jcroll wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> remember what they do to engineers that are over 40. May I ask what do you mean by this? I'm an engineer entering my late 30's, what is it exactly that I have to prepare for by the time I enter my 40s?

I believe the end of that joke is "they take them out and shoot them."

"behind the shed", I believe ... :)

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#118

Post by vram22 »

jensv wrote: post #68
Yenderman wrote: post #56

When I was 30, people just looked at me and assumed I was a competent software engineer because I looked exactly like a very senior software engineer, and I presented myself in that way. But I was very junior, having made a recent career change. Yet they paid me like a prince, and I rose so rapidly through the ranks that I became an executive. Now I'm 50, and my company folded and I went to the curb, and am looking f…

That's insanity. What is wrong with this industry????

Unless that is a rhetorical question .... plenty.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#119

Post by Joeri »

wisam wrote: post #67
illumin8 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a 44 year old senior engineer, and the one thing I've noticed is that bad managers are almost universal in technology. I've had about 20 managers in my career and I can count only 2-3 that I would consider great managers, the rest ranged from mediocre to incredibly incompetent. This, to me, is the #1 reason I gain much more satisfaction from doing consulting work on the side: I'm my own manager, and I can make de…

Why do think is the reason that most managers in technology are bad? I tend to think of management as abstraction. A mid-level manager provides an abstraction of the work for high-level management and at the same time is provided an abstraction of the work by the low-level managers or engineers. Assuming that my understanding is right, are these abstractions leaky? is the lack of technical knowledge the reason why ma…

The thing with managers is that they have to understand the work being done well enough to make decisions about direction and resource allocation, while also having tons of people skills. In tech you either get a manager who doesn't have a technical background and just doesn't understand the thing they're managing, or you get someone with a technical background who stereotypically doesn't have the necessary people skills to manage well (it's a stereotype, but I find it to also be true, including about myself).

Part of it is also that as a programmer you learn to micromanage what the computer is doing, to be very precise with your instructions so the program won't fail. When managing people for the first time the instinct is to do the same: give very precise instructions even an idiot could follow. That's exactly the wrong approach to manage effectively (except for a few rare circumstances). That's why programmers tend to make bad managers who micromanage, they've been trained wrong by their prior work.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#120

Post by throwaway172852 »

Speaking as someone who is a 40+ IC Eng at one of the FAANG companies (and previously worked for another) let me give you some advice:

- First, at the risk of being blunt, you come across as someone who needs to get off their high horse with your list of "demands".

Take the open office. This is the norm. IME this has always been manageable with headphones. YMMV.

- The biggest issue is not wanting to exhaust yourself helping others. Helping others is about your best value add. What's more, helping people is a pretty good way of earning the gratitude of your colleagues.

Some general thoughts on working as a 40+ IC in these companies. Again YMMV:

- I don't tell people my age. Nor do I allow people to infer it by, say, mentioning when I graduated college or make references that would otherwise indicate my age. Now I don't look 25 but do people assume I'm old looking in my 30s or in my 40s? I have no idea. I think it's in my best interest not to find out.

- Ageism is very real and it's subtle. I've had directors tell me "I like new grads so I can mold them" without realizing that's brazen ageism.

- Culture fit is another common proxy for ageism. You can say that millennials will naturally gravitate to those of similar age or background. Grads from one college will tend to prefer grads from the same college. Common experience is one reason for this but another is people can overvalue the social proof of, say, being an MIT or Stanford alum as that by extension increases their own value.

Culture fit is problematic on many fronts and tends to exclude those of nonstandard backgrounds for which age is but one factor.

- With or without justification you will have to alleviate the concern that you aren't an old dog who can't learn new tricks. Some older workers will expect deference based on age (as a proxy for seniority/experience) but it's the nature of the beast that in FAANG companies you may end up reporting to some wunderkind who is 2-3 years out of college and may be 20+ years younger than you. If you get hung up on that you're going to have a bad time.

- Likewise older workers will have to fight the stereotype that you'll be less committed because of other responsibilities (typically meaning family). The way you're wording things here does you no favors because it can come across as entitled and inflexible.

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