Live data from Hacker News

Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

reuters.com

31–40 of 59 posts

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#31
post #25

Stuff like this is pretty common in the military. When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune NC, my wife worked as a reporter for a local paper. One of her assignments was interviewing people at a town hall style meeting regarding chemicals in the base water supply. Children of people that lived in base housing had an abnormally high cancer rate, but the military denied that any of the contaminated water was leaking into t…

> instead of getting rid of the lead paint, they just painted over it

This is actually one of the correct ways to deal with lead paint, assuming the "paint" is actually a proper encapsulant. See for example https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/lead/renovation_repa...

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s as recent as anything built before 1986 when it comes to lead pipes: https://www.epa.gov/lead/protect-your-family-exposures-lead

In the UK we had lead in petrol until the year 2000 and most motorsports was sponsored by big tobacco in those days. So worrying about a little bit of lead in paint left over from 1986 kind of shows how far we have come. We did actually have lead free petrol before then in the UK and the government even made it significantly cheaper. But nobody wanted it, they chose to pay extra to put toxic lead in their cars. Damag…

I also find it amusing that we still call that petrol “unleaded,” as if to imply that the natural state of petrol is leaded and some company has kindly removed the lead from it to make it safer, rather than never adding it.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#33

>The 80-year-old white stucco home... Well there's your problem. Old houses have lead. It should be assumed to be that way unless there's reason to believe otherwise. It'll be another 50+yr before most lead paint is gone. The fact of the matter is that labor is expensive in this country so lead paint is rarely dealt with unless it's conveniently within the scope of other work. I don't think this article very meaningf…

> Old houses have lead

So I’ll accept that lead pipes are not great but how bad is lead paint really?

Specifically, if you have lead paint underneath several layers of more modern titanium paint, what is the lead poisoning risk? I thought the more significant risk with lead paint was from paint flaking into dust, especially for painted iron which comes off as the iron rusts.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#34
post #31
post #25

Stuff like this is pretty common in the military. When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune NC, my wife worked as a reporter for a local paper. One of her assignments was interviewing people at a town hall style meeting regarding chemicals in the base water supply. Children of people that lived in base housing had an abnormally high cancer rate, but the military denied that any of the contaminated water was leaking into t…

> instead of getting rid of the lead paint, they just painted over it This is actually one of the correct ways to deal with lead paint, assuming the "paint" is actually a proper encapsulant. See for example https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/lead/renovation_repa...

Ditto for the asbestos --- if it's not in a state where fibers of it can easily flake off and float around to be inhaled (technical term is "friable"), it won't do any harm.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#35
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of getting rid of the lead paint, they just painted over it This is actually one of the correct ways to deal with lead paint, assuming the "paint" is actually a proper encapsulant. See for example https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/lead/renovation_repa...

Ditto for the asbestos --- if it's not in a state where fibers of it can easily flake off and float around to be inhaled (technical term is "friable"), it won't do any harm.

And, in fact, any work to remove it can kick up dust and increase health hazards.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sadly this is not an anomaly: https://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/camp-lejeune/

Fuck me! The top comment as of now in this comments page is someone's personal experience of Camp Lejeune! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18197954

Well, it is a huge base! Hey, at least the VA can cover my out-of-pocket cancer expenses?

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#37
post #23
post #16

Stupid question, but how is the danger from lead paint? Do you have to eat paint chips? I see you can breathe in the dust- how much dust does it take?

I don't know how much dust it takes, one can google 'lead oxide MSDS' though. Occupational limits are 0.05mg/m3. What I've read is lead is really bad for neurological development. Isn't as bad for adult men. Acute toxicity isn't that bad. LD50 > 10000 mg/kg ( Rat ). Two problems with lead paint is, lead is an insidious poison. The body doesn't clear lead that well and it has a long half life. So small repeated exposu…

> Occupational limits are 0.05mg/m3.

A note on those limits: The medical limit is zero, and that is not fear mongering but the result of ever more results over decades of research. In a little course I took from Tuft University about drinking water one of the four weeks was dedicated to the topic "lead". Two professors, one an engineer and one a medical professor taught the course. The medical professor made that point over several lectures.

Also, from personal experience of having been diagnosed with chronic heavy metal poisoning by lab data (university clinic, researcher specialist doctor) as well as by unexpectedly amazing success of chelation treatment using DMPS and DMSA, and continuing far beyond when excretion went way below "thresholds" I too can tell you from my own experience that effects are there for extremely small quantities, just as the often population-level and statistics based research shows. My "on/off" experience for years of using chelators let me have extremely uncommon experiences. First of all, this kind of stuff is almost never diagnosed (only pretty high doses of acute poisoning are easy to test for, what is stored in the body is inaccessible to tests unless you cut a piece off of organs to send to the lab - forget blood tests, they only show what's on the move outside cells right now). Second, when people get chelators they stop when only little is excreted. From my experience that is an error, treatment should continue until the patient says there are no effects (of the treatment) any more. What remains stored in the body comes out very very slowly. Chelators only have access to extracelluar space to begin with. Something that happens to (heavy metal) chronic poisoning patients quite often is that excretion levels at first remain pretty low, or they go down quickly - but after a few months of chelation the suddenly go up, and the body starts acting funny (it starts excreting on its own). Happened to me too, after half a year of linear decrease of after-chelation measurements it suddenly went up by a factor of three, and my body became very active, lots and lots of stuff happening. For example - and I felt that because the surrounding tissue was "active" for a few weeks - a nodule I had in an enlarged thyroid as well as the enlargement itself completely disappeared. The endocrinologist who just two years before had recommended surgery was left stumbling "I'm amazed" again and again - after checking the thyroid twice with ultrasound because he could not believe it. This phenomenon shows that the body may not excrete on its own when the burden is too high.

So for me the whole discussion is quite personal, but ten years ago I would have been like everybody else, I would not have taken this whole very abstract issue seriously at all.

That there is a limit is because it is not technically possible to get to zero when there are heavy metals, or for everybody to avoid it, so the government sets a limit as a compromise between cost and what is achievable.

By the way, I had my two Italian espresso portafilter machines tested for lead. The expensive one which had everything made of copper had no lead but elevated copper (which is no big deal, copper is essential and the body has pretty good transport mechanisms, see "ceruloplasmin"). The cheaper one with brass though exceeded the drinking water limit many times! I had tested it because I wanted to sell it. It was a Rancilio Sylvia, by the way.

What is also notable that several heavy metals at once may be far more (orders of magnitude) toxic than just one. There was a lethal dose study decades ago that tested lead and mercury individually. When they combined the two lethal dose dropped to a thousandth, meaning it was a thousand times more toxic. Mercury is in our environment, especially large predator fish, and in amalgam fillings for teeth. So if somebody who is exposed to "a little bit" of mercury is also exposed to lead you can forget those official thresholds even more.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#38

>The 80-year-old white stucco home... Well there's your problem. Old houses have lead. It should be assumed to be that way unless there's reason to believe otherwise. It'll be another 50+yr before most lead paint is gone. The fact of the matter is that labor is expensive in this country so lead paint is rarely dealt with unless it's conveniently within the scope of other work. I don't think this article very meaningf…

> Old houses have lead So I’ll accept that lead pipes are not great but how bad is lead paint really? Specifically, if you have lead paint underneath several layers of more modern titanium paint, what is the lead poisoning risk? I thought the more significant risk with lead paint was from paint flaking into dust, especially for painted iron which comes off as the iron rusts.

Lead paint that has been covered in layers of latex paint is safe.

Most of the hazard of lead paint comes from kids eating paint chips in poorly maintained buildings or contractors sanding it off and contaminating the building.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#39
post #25

Stuff like this is pretty common in the military. When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune NC, my wife worked as a reporter for a local paper. One of her assignments was interviewing people at a town hall style meeting regarding chemicals in the base water supply. Children of people that lived in base housing had an abnormally high cancer rate, but the military denied that any of the contaminated water was leaking into t…

Asbestos tile and roofing aren’t really a big hazard. Usually the risky stuff that is still around is insulation in ceiling plenum and in concrete walls in 50-70s buildings.

Government buildings are always suspect, as they often are exempt from many building codes, including fire codes.

Re: Children poisoned by lead on U.S. Army bases

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK we had lead in petrol until the year 2000 and most motorsports was sponsored by big tobacco in those days. So worrying about a little bit of lead in paint left over from 1986 kind of shows how far we have come. We did actually have lead free petrol before then in the UK and the government even made it significantly cheaper. But nobody wanted it, they chose to pay extra to put toxic lead in their cars. Damag…

I also find it amusing that we still call that petrol “unleaded,” as if to imply that the natural state of petrol is leaded and some company has kindly removed the lead from it to make it safer, rather than never adding it.

I don't know, "unleaded" sounds kind of like "unleavened", where leavening was never added in the first place. I think "deleaded" might be closer to "lead removed", if it were a word.
Post reply on HN