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Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

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Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were using any sort of neural networks approach with stochastic gradient descent, the network would have to spend some "gradient juice" to cut a divot that recognizes and penalizes women's colleges and the like. It wouldn't do this just because there were fewer women in the batches, rather it would just not assign any weight to those factors. Unless they presented lots of unqualified resumes of people not in…

> It wouldn't do this just because there were fewer women in the batches, rather it would just not assign any weight to those factors. That's exactly the issue we are talking about here. Woman's colleges would have less training data so they would get updated less. For many classes of models (such as neural networks with weight decay or common initialization schemes) this would encourage the model to be more "neutral…

I don't think I'm with you. A neural net cannot do this - picking apart male and female tokens requires a signal in the gradients that force the two classes apart. If there's no gradient, then something like weight decay will just zero out the weights for the "gender" feature, even if it's there to begin with. Confidence wouldn't enter in, because the feature is irrelevant to the loss function.

A class imbalance doesn't change that: if there's no gradient to follow, then the class in question will be strictly ignored unless you've somehow forced the model to pay attention to it in the architecture (which is possible, but would take some specific effort).

What I'm suggesting is that it's likely that they did (perhaps accidentally?) let a loss gradient between the classes slip into their data, because they had a whole bunch of female resumes that were from people not in tech. That would explain the difference, whereas at least with NNs, simply having imbalanced classes would not.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#362
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The job of the developer has changed massively". What, pray tell, has changed that made the job more attractive to men, and less attractive to women? You need to be able to answer that question if you're going to make a causal assertion.

I wasn't around two generations ago to make the comparison but I imagine that with the higher income has come much higher expectations that you'll be in the office for 12 hours a day and weekends. You also have much higher wealth in western nations which correlates with higher ability to seek jobs that fit your preferences. Back in the day most people didn't go to uni and had a much smaller choice of positions. There…

> Back in the day most people didn't go to uni and had a much smaller choice of positions.

Not the parent and I wasn't around either, but I think accessibility of education counters your point, not supports it.

More egalitarianism should in theory be more favorable to women.

Back then I imagine it was much harder to program without access to university computers and education materials.

More women get higher education than men compared to 35 years ago.

More incentives (monetary and otherwise), combined with lower barriers to entry should also be favoring the supposedly disadvantaged.

And yet the drop in F-M ratio since late 1980s has not been overcome last time I checked.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#363
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's taking a little longer than it should, but people are finally starting to realize that the actual reason there aren't as many women in software is because they've chosen not to be. They're wired differently and therefore have different interests.

But there are fewer women in software now than there were 30 years ago. Are women today "wired differently" from their mothers? Single-generation changes in behavior aren't genetic. They're social.

One big change is that many traditionally male high paying jobs like doctors, lawyers, etc. have become much more open to women. Some, like publishing, have become majority women to the same degree as Tech.

One very likely explanation is that many women who wanted to be independently financially successful had few choices other than tech back decades ago. Now they have many other choices.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#364
post #159

This will be unpopular but I don't care. What is the evidence that the source data for this 'AI' is biased because the men it came from did not want to hire women? Is there a reserve of unemployed non-male engineers out there? If so what evidence is there of that? Technical talent is both expensive and a rare commodity for tech companies. The non-male engineers I've worked with have always been exceedingly competent,…

"The non-male engineers I've worked with have always been exceedingly competent, smart, and their differing perspectives invaluable" - that is really an (anecdotal) evidence that there is a bias indeed. If the recruiting was all unbiased than the quality of existing male and female force would be the same - if female workers are of higher quality than it means that they need to pass higher requirements.

Another corollary should immediately follow: If an average woman in the industry is that much better than an average man, where are all the female-only companies?

Does nobody want money in a capitalist society?

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#365
> "Gender bias was not the only issue. Problems with the data that underpinned the models’ judgments meant that unqualified candidates were often recommended for all manner of jobs, the people said. With the technology returning results almost at random, Amazon shut down the project, they said."

Doesn't this mean the headline is incorrect, incomplete and/or (intentionally) misleading?

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#366
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they did. It should be obvious that if you don't want to include gender, then you have to sanitize gender-related data.

More than that, though. Graduates of all-women colleges were also caught. If you're using school as a data point, that's extremely hard to sanitize.

Then what is the purpose of this? At some point you want this thing to "discriminate" (or "select", if this is a better word) people based on what they have done in life. Which is not negative per se.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#368
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lower certainty would in turn lead to lower rankings for women even without any bias in the data. I don't think that's true. "No bias" means that gender is irrelevant (i.e. its correlation with outcome is 0%). Therefore the system shouldn't even take it into account - it would evaluate both men and women just by other criteria (experience, technical skills, etc), and it would have equal amounts of data for both…

> "No bias" means that gender is irrelevant False. If we're talking about the technical statistical definition, bias means systematic deviation from the underlying truth in the data -- see this article by Chris Stucchio with some images for clarification: https://jacobitemag.com/2017/08/29/a-i-bias-doesnt-mean-what... "In statistics, a “bias” is defined as a statistical predictor which makes errors that all have the…

Question: So technically, the AI is not bias against women per se, but a set of characteristics / properties, that are more common among women.

I'm not trying to split hairs (or argue), as much as further clarify the difference between (the common definition of) human bias and that of statistical bias.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#369
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No body thinks that. You're way outside the overton window. Why is the health care field heavily biased in favor or female nurses and doctors? Are women smarter than men when it comes to biology/anatomy?

You're right, nobody thinks men are smarter than women. And it isn't true. So, let's think about why we see gender roles in employment. Why are there so few women software engineers? One possible explanation is that women just aren't smart enough. If you don't believe that (and I don't), then you need another explanation. Maybe it's because of sexism. But if you don't want to believe it's sexism (as the OP implied),…

They're not too dumb, and the hiring process isn't sexist, so why? And that's where hands come up empty.

There is strong evidence that women are on average more interested in "people" and men more interested in "things". Several references in http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#370
I'm honestly pretty shocked that Amazon went ahead with this which is such an obvious legal liability in an extremely touchy area of business practice. Everything about this should have been a red flag that meant it never should have gotten off the ground, let alone been in place for years.
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