There's an argument to be made that it was irresponsible for the SEC to wait this long to clarify their position on enforcement. My guess is they want to deflate this nonsense slowly instead of pop it. It metastasized into a somewhat 'too big to fail' situation before they had time to react properly.
>It metastasized into a somewhat 'too big to fail' situation before they had time to react properly. What harm could come from indicting scammy ICO pushers too quickly, or those who had crowdsourced too much money?
SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
101–110 of 164 posts
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ethics aside, yeah they should be worried. The "I was only following orders" claim usually only applies when those orders were lawful.
So every single employee of a corporation is expected to triple check that everything they're told to do is legally bulletproof, having to duplicate the work of the entire legal department? That's ridiculous, especially with how many laws and regulations are unpredictable, unexpected, unintuitive, hard to understand, etc.
If your lawyer recommends it, then get out in front of the problem. You may even be able to reach a settlement with the SEC. (Which, needless to say, is far better than having to reach a "deal" with the DOJ.)
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#103The laws need to change. The SEC should only get involved when someone defrauds another party through misrepresentation. Mandatory disclosure, registration, and KYC requirements are all infringements on the right to privacy and free contract. That the poorest households spend 9% of their income on state-run lotteries, yet people can't try their hand at investing their own money in businesses/projects that haven't bee…
"Mandatory disclosure, registration, and KYC requirements are all infringements on the right to privacy and free contract." No, they don't. This is like saying the 13th Amendment infringes on your right to sell yourself into slavery.
In any case, that's an extremely dishonest comparison. In no way is spending money that your past self left to your present self however you wish (e.g. investing in a out-there idea called "Bit Coin" in 2010, instead of wasting it on state-run lotteries that the government advertises), comparable to selling your future self's freedom away. The latter violates the rights of someone who is arguably not you. The former violates no one's rights and should not be prohibited in a free society.
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Mandatory disclosure, registration, and KYC requirements are all infringements on the right to privacy and free contract." No, they don't. This is like saying the 13th Amendment infringes on your right to sell yourself into slavery.
Well the 13th amendment does deny you a right to sell yourself into slavery, so you're not substantiating your claim that these laws don't infringe on your right to privacy and free contract. In any case, that's an extremely dishonest comparison. In no way is spending money that your past self left to your present self however you wish (e.g. investing in a out-there idea called "Bit Coin" in 2010, instead of wasting…
I'm saying your complaint is like that. Yes, it does prevent you from doing that. Nobody cares, however. Just like you are trying to complain that you are prevented from buying a security where you get absolutely no insight, knowledge, or reporting whatsoever. I just cannot take that complaint seriously at all, and any legitimate investment doesn't either.
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#105Had an interesting conversation if you have been involved in any ICO sales and live in North America, seek legal counsel immediately . Do not listen to idiots telling you this is good for the space, they don't know just how much reach SEC has when it comes to securities fraud. The investigation will likely span many years but they will eventually get to your ICO and will hit you with wire fraud and felony, which won'…
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the issue of what constitutes a security is very well defined in the US...it’s just no one has framed their token in such a way it’s not a security (despite all the claims to the contrary) and otherwise the ICOs have not complied with securities laws because...well move fast break things. I’m not sure why a company doesn’t just come out and do an ICO: a) with a token that’s not a security or b) a token that i…
> a token that is a security and comply with securities laws Because if you do that, there's no point having an ICO. Just do an IPO - the token is an expensive, pointless distraction from their mission to democratize the world's dogsitters, or whatever they want to do.
A token is virtually frictionless and costs nothing to setup or trade globally, dividends can be paid out directly to token owners.
An IPO is an incredibly lengthy, arduous process requiring a small army of lawyers and accountants simply to offer shares to a restricted subset of sophisticated investors in one country.
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#107Had an interesting conversation if you have been involved in any ICO sales and live in North America, seek legal counsel immediately . Do not listen to idiots telling you this is good for the space, they don't know just how much reach SEC has when it comes to securities fraud. The investigation will likely span many years but they will eventually get to your ICO and will hit you with wire fraud and felony, which won'…
Why is this person’s imagination the top voted comment on what could be an interesting discussion?
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#108Had an interesting conversation if you have been involved in any ICO sales and live in North America, seek legal counsel immediately . Do not listen to idiots telling you this is good for the space, they don't know just how much reach SEC has when it comes to securities fraud. The investigation will likely span many years but they will eventually get to your ICO and will hit you with wire fraud and felony, which won'…
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Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The SEC should only get involved when someone defrauds another party through misrepresentation. So basically ICOs, then.
Exactly. The average ICO made buzzword promises much more insane and fraudulent than even Theranos. As someone who watched all this quite closely back in the day I cannot believe the amount of money these hucksters pulled out of people and still are to this day.
I don't like people promising the moon to hype up speculative investments, but there are non-government solutions to this, like reputation markets.
In fact we see these non-government solutions working already: token investors today are unrecognizable from those that were giving a website with a white paper $40 million worth of cryptocurrency in 2016. This transformation has occurred completely independently from any regulatory action. The collective intelligence of the market has increased from hard-won lessons in the need to do due diligence, and the emergence of numerous sites for rating token sales (mind you, there's still a lot of room improvement in the curation market).
Regulations can obviously address some of these problems too, but any restriction on how consenting parties choose to interact is going to have massive unintended consequences, and in my estimation the unintended consequences do much more harm than what's alleviated by the regulations.
Also worth mentioning is that the regulations that the SEC is trying to impose on token sales go far beyond prohibiting issuers from promising big gains. They try to micromanage how an offering is conducted with inflexible cookie cutter rules that inhibit innovation and make the entire market dependent on a centralized gatekeeper, which is a monopolistic and fragile situation prone to systemic failures.
It's obvious to me that a free society should not tolerate this level of control being exerted on how people engage in voluntary interactions with other consenting adults.
The problem is that the idea that we ought to be free to do with our money what we wish threatens many powerful special interests, so we get a never-ending stream of rationalizations and emotional appeals for restricting people's contracting rights, and for funnelling commerce through centralized gatekeepers.
Re: SEC tightens the noose on ICO-funded startups
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well the 13th amendment does deny you a right to sell yourself into slavery, so you're not substantiating your claim that these laws don't infringe on your right to privacy and free contract. In any case, that's an extremely dishonest comparison. In no way is spending money that your past self left to your present self however you wish (e.g. investing in a out-there idea called "Bit Coin" in 2010, instead of wasting…
"Well the 13th amendment does deny you a right to sell yourself into slavery, so you're not substantiating your claim that these laws don't infringe on your right to privacy and free contract." I'm saying your complaint is like that. Yes, it does prevent you from doing that. Nobody cares, however. Just like you are trying to complain that you are prevented from buying a security where you get absolutely no insight, k…
>>No, they don't.
Now you admit that they do. So you're resorting to misleading rhetoric to try to blunt the common sense argument I'm making, which is that in a free society, no one has a moral right to tell someone else how they can spend their money.
People should have more humility, and not assume their understanding of the world is so far superior to the common man's that they have a right to exert their will on the common man. The call for these types of regulatory restrictions appeals to shallow unthinking narcissism, and nothing more, which is why it needs to be supported with inappropriate and inflammatory comparisons to selling yourself into slavery.