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Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

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Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between censorship and all of those things is that they aren't prior restraints. Nobody filters what you say to make sure you aren't saying something defamatory. You say it first, then someone has to take you to court, where you have the opportunity to defend yourself. And somebody has to care enough to shut you up to go through the effort of taking you to court, and then they have to win. Some kind of…

>>You say it first, then someone has to take you to court, where you have the opportunity to defend yourself. What if you say it and someone is seriously harmed or dies as a result? The fact is that we have prior restraints for all kinds of things because we realize they are dangerous and have the potential to cause harm. I don’t see why speech should be different. Words can kill.

> What if you say it and someone is seriously harmed or dies as a result?

Frankly, that's the price of freedom, and it's the reason that fighting to maintain our freedoms is a never-ending battle.

Allowing the public to own and operate cars likely results in more deaths from crashes, but it also allows people to travel to and from arbitrary places on their own schedule.

Allowing people to own general purpose computing devices allows people to develop harmful software tools, to route around safeguards, to communicate clandestinely about illegal activities, and to design CAD files for 3D printed guns. Of course, it also brings us the ability to build software that works the way we want (or need) it to, to build successful businesses, to preserve ephemeral cultural history, to expose official corruption, and to organize political dissent through encrypted back-channels. You cannot have the benefits without the risks.

Allowing people to speak freely may result in someone feeling emotionally attacked, it may result in convincing someone that a false idea is true, or it may give people a flimsy excuse to engage in physical violence. But the benefits are innumerable. Unrestricted speech allows us to voice our concerns as citizens and participate in the political process without being silenced. It prevents the powerful from using concerns of "safety" to suppress dissenting opinions. It serves as a safety valve that helps potentially dangerous ideas rise into the sphere of public debate, where they can be taken apart (or even just "rounded off") before they result in something like genocide.

You can't stop speech, period. You can prevent it from happening publicly, on a temporary basis, but in the long term that kind of repression leads to violent revolutions.

That said, there must be some limits; I cannot run you over with my car or use my computer to hack the Pentagon, and I cannot threaten your life. But these limits must be explicit and narrowly constructed or they will be abused by the powerful. That means that there are necessarily "edge cases" that have to be decided by a fair and impartial process! This is unavoidable, because otherwise some people will continually step just over the line and then claim innocence. There is no way to "fix" this; it is always a messy process because of the enormous complexity involved in the world.

It's always tempting to trade freedom for safety, especially for victims who may not have suffered as much in a less free world. But we have to push back against that sentiment, or the future will not be worth living in.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#272

Censorship alone is not evil. The problem is, once you have infrastructure in place to make it easy, it will be abused. And if that infrastructure is centralized, the stakes for abuse are much higher. It's the same old problem of "who regulates the regulators". Rather than the issue being about "censorship bad / free speech good", I think the heart of it is: There's simply a lack of confidence that tech giants like G…

> Censorship alone is not evil. Restricting access to information generally is until a good reason is given. That could be the protection of personal information for example. But without justification I would heavily disagree with that statement.

There seems to be justification though. If a "news" website is constantly publishing stories that are objectively false, or based on some factual event but distorted beyond any verifiable aspect, then Google has the right (and I'd argue the duty) to remove that content from its platform, especially if that content is targeted at individuals.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#273
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I have to admit that the American model is vastly superior. Europe had laws to protect "civilty" even before the great wars. American democracy is also more successful in general. Europe just had the "luck" that censorship didn't become very necessary. In some places it was used extensively and those places are no more today. And lastly, stripping someones voice implicates directly stripping someones di…

I disagree. If with "American" you mean the US, then their democratic system is very weak. It constantly gets bought out by lobbyists (but then, maybe it's just more obvious, more visible than here in EU), they only have two parties, who, judging with a European eye, the spectrum of politics is very narrow. There is much less open discussion, the political shows are more often depending on the personality of the show…

> their democratic system is very weak.

And with good reason, e.g. mob rule. (As an American I hope this remains so.)

> bought out by lobbyists

On all sides. Goldman Sachs has their man in Washington, as does Planned Parenthood.

> only have two parties

America has multiple parties, but two are the most ascendant. And the reason for this is more complicated than the US Constitution, e.g. writing state laws that a party must have so many members to qualify for automatic enrollment on a ballot.

> the spectrum of politics is very narrow

Americans aware of European politics view Europe much the same way, that is, even the 'far right' of Europe more or less equals the 'center left to center right' of the United States.

> less open discussion

In a sense this is true. American media companies, for example, are dominated by non-Conservatives (the 'center right to far right' of the US) and so they choose their subjects, guests, talking points, etc., from amongst those they favor, i.e. non-Conservative sources. There is much more open discussion on the Internet but, as this post shows, even Big Tech is in favor of shutting down certain (non-Progressive) viewpoints they disagree with.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#274

This presentation briefly mentions but then seems to mostly forget about "Elsagate" which they call the "Peppa Pig scandal". James Bridle argues convincingly that the genre of bizarre YouTube videos which appeals to the toddler reptilian brain ( https://medium.com/@jamesbridle/something-is-wrong-on-the-in... ) is not created by hostile or evil actors but instead has evolved orgnically based on what stuff toddlers wan…

The problem is that the whole YouTube UI is machine learned to maximize engagement, so that they can show a lot of ads. The algorithm will do whatever it can to get people to watch more YouTube. We notice the weird results when it comes to videos for toddlers, but the same thing is happening to adults, we just don't see it in quite the same way -- it's always easier to see self-destructive behavior and make attributions from the outside.

Ultimately, interacting with software that has been machine learned for a metric that doesn't serve you or your kids' interests amounts to deliberately swallowing a parasite.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#275
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with most of that. You can pick and choose freedoms that you value or don't, and say Europe has more freedom. I can go the other way. Here is one: In much of Europe, you have nothing resembling the protection that Americans have under the 2nd amendment. You have "free election" of approved parties. The other ones are subject to arrest for their political expression. Right now in the UK, Britain First is fa…

Just one thing, is the electoral college part of Congress and / or the Senate? If not, the systems are not comparable. And I have the impression that you seriously missunderstood my last paragraph which referred to radical elements thoroughly within their communities. Which, obviously, has nothing to do with constitutional free speech. In the end, we agree that we don't agree. And for the sake of the discussion it is…

The electoral college (EC) is a state system connected neither to Congress nor the Senate. Rather the EC is apportioned representatives based on the total number of Congressmen and Senators a state has. These representatives are chosen by (and vote at the behest of) the individual states according to how those states choose. All but two states require their EC representatives to vote for the Presidential candidate who won their state vote.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#276
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that Libya should be remembered along the same lines as the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? If you're being serious you should really review the last couple decades. In what world does the intervention of Clinton and Obama equal the Bushes? Even Clinton's Iraq endeavor was downplayed by the GOP at the time as a distraction from Lewinsky. But the real reason Libya isn't in the public's forethought is sim…

> Are you suggesting that Libya should be remembered along the same lines as the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? At least on some level if your concerned about the results of regime change by western powers. > But the real reason Libya isn't in the public's forethought is simple fact we didn't invade and rebuild the country. Its not hard to figure out why its not treated the same as Bush's wars. No, we just let them build…

This is all irrelevant to your original point about why certain wars are remembered over others.

Cost, length, and American death toll are the obvious reasons you seem to completely ignore.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#277

Slide 66 is particularly interesting, and articulates an observation that I've made: > Tech firms are performing a balancing act between two incompatible positions > 100% commit to the American tradition that prioritises free speech for democracy, not civility > 100% commit to the European tradition that favors dignity over liberty, and civility over freedom It is a very American view that unrestricted freedom of spe…

> It is a very American view that unrestricted freedom of speech is a requirement for a well-functioning democracy It is similarly a very American view that unrestricted freedom of speech is a requirement for a well-functioning internet (well, not completely "unrestricted", but we're not here to argue nuance). Avoiding the obvious debate on which is better, the problem of choice exists in a global medium. Lest it bec…

They would prefer it as a way of lowering the cost of doing business. However, as Google has shown with Dragonfly, this attitude is likely to encourage a race to the bottom with the most oppressive regimes.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one thing, is the electoral college part of Congress and / or the Senate? If not, the systems are not comparable. And I have the impression that you seriously missunderstood my last paragraph which referred to radical elements thoroughly within their communities. Which, obviously, has nothing to do with constitutional free speech. In the end, we agree that we don't agree. And for the sake of the discussion it is…

The electoral college (EC) is a state system connected neither to Congress nor the Senate. Rather the EC is apportioned representatives based on the total number of Congressmen and Senators a state has. These representatives are chosen by (and vote at the behest of) the individual states according to how those states choose. All but two states require their EC representatives to vote for the Presidential candidate wh…

Thanks for the answer. I knew that, and yes the German syatem has a tendency to blur the lines between legslative and executive branches.

My comment was in reply to a comment that equated a parliament electing a chancellor / prime minister with an electoral college. Despite all the downsides of not electing the head of government directly they still are different things.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#279

I just finished skimming the whole thing—did Google just trick Breitbart into publishing propaganda for them? (I'm reminded of the Valve "employee handbook.")

If they did, it was a serious own goal. For the last year, everything coming out about Google has been pretty negative, and this seems to fit the pattern.

Re: Leaked Google briefing, admitting a “shift towards censorship”

#280
post #30

Underpinning the whole question of censorship; “Under section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, tech firms have legal immunity from the majority of the content posted on their platforms (unlike ‘traditional’ media publications). This protection has empowered YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Reddit to create spaces for free speech without the fear of legal action or its financial consequence.” Censoring content is…

Proceeding with censorship seems to carry the risk of losing immunity under Section 230. Nope. The whole point of Section 230 is platforms can make and enforce rules, and still have a safe harbor. Otherwise, they all would have lost their safe harbor decades ago.

The issue is that Google is now associating itself with the role of a "publisher" rather than a "platform" (in particular on slide 68). Publishers are not protected under Section 230.
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