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How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

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Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#71

Post by Nrsolis »

rubyrescue wrote: post #69
Nrsolis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That whole prestige thing is BUNK. For the record, I'm a graduate of the Harvard Extension program (undergrad) and I'm also a member of the Harvard Club of NY. If you're in your 20's and have no other accomplishments to speak of then the signaling effect of having an Ivy League degree is probably going to do something for you. But if you're in your 30s or 40s, you're going to be judged on what you've done outside of…

Totally agree w/the name dropping your school being a bad thing. However, just being a member of the club of people from those schools just keeps paying dividends as your career moves on. My friend quoted above went to Penn (Ivy League), I went to Auburn University (State School in Alabama). Both of us moved from the US to Argentina. I'm 36, he's about the same age. Penn alumni in Buenos Aires? DOZENS, NEY HUNDREDS.…

Keep this in mind: networking opportunities come in many forms. Alumni clubs are just one avenue available to someone who is trying to connect with others.

BTW, Auburn is a very good school. Excellent academics and a good reputation almost everywhere in the world.

Of course, one of the afflictions of state schools is an overemphasis on sports. My feeling is that there is an attraction affect happening with certain schools that depends on their "brand." It may be the case that people who want to enter the corridors of power seek Ivy League degrees while others want to tap into more localized fraternities focused on something other than wealth/power/prestige.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#72

Post by yaseming »

csallen wrote: post #14
milkshakes wrote: post #10

Or you could just start "dropping in" on classes.. That's the first thing that came to mind when I read the title.

Really. I went to MIT for undergrad, and my experience there was nobody questions who you are in classes with 40+ people. (The one exception was an AI class I took senior year with Patrick Winston. There were almost 100 students, but he quite impressively memorized the names and faces of every student before the first day of class.)

<3 PHW

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#73

Post by RossM »

milkshakes wrote: post #27
pak wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, you don't get any credit, or a degree. So it doesn't really matter whether the classes you drop in on are Ivy League or not, just that you are learning enough to make it worth your time. You won't be able to validate your knowledge of the course material later with anything but a personal demonstration.

Fair point. Most of the classes I drop in on are large, lecture based classes, where I'm going more for the lecturer than for the validation. In some cases (CS courses), it's really the peers/TAs that matter more than the lecturers. Of course, gaining trust and access with them is trickier than just showing up to a lecture, but it's definitely not impossible :)

I'd say the hardest part about attending a lab session would be getting a computer account (assuming the computers are networked). I'm sure I've seen students that don't attend lectures (presumably looking at them at home) but are there in the lab sessions.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#74

Post by pyth0nista »

rubyrescue wrote: post #46

Quoting from a friend who went to a similar school: Wow, that is total misinformation. Yes, all the Ivy League schools have General Studies programs but they are looked at as an adult/evening education program. For example, Penn's General Studies program doesn't even require standardized test scores: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/undergraduate/ba/ I'm sure a person can put on their resume that they have a Bachelor's f…

Is anyone else appalled by that sentiment?

If the whole point of going to an Ivy League school is to obtain an education that supposedly exceeds all others in terms of quality (and cost), who cares how you got admitted, as long as you leave with a degree? These students, at least in the case of Columbia's School of General Studies[1], take the same courses along side regular students and graduate with the same BAs/BSs, albeit granted by a different resident college. These are people clearly capable of handling the coursework of an "elite" institution who would otherwise be kept out by overly restrictive admission requirements, requirements which clearly have more to do with perpetuating the institution's prestige than anything else.

What's next, looking down at transfer students for not taking all of their courses at the school they graduated from? And what about legacy admissions? If we're so concerned about distinguishing between those who were vetted by a selective, supposedly aptitude-based admissions process and those who weren't, shouldn't we assume those graduates who attended the same elite schools their parents did benefited from some form of legacy admission and hold that against them as well?

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_School_of_G...

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#75

Post by strebler »

idm wrote: post #51
kyro wrote: post #50

A physician on the admissions board for a top 40 medical school told me the secret to their process. They separate each applicant into their respective ethnic background, take the top 5% of each pile, and then take a closer look at the individual applications. His words, verbatim, were "So if you're a black guy with a 3.2 gpa, you're good. But an Asian dude with a 3.9? You see that all the time; so good luck." The ar…

This is different at every school, and I've never heard of the system you described. The two grad schools I've gotten a 'behind-the-scenes' look at work like this: - a team of 3 will review applications - the applications are split into 3 piles, one pile each - they rank their pile in order - the group reconvenes, and they make an argument for their favorites The one prejudice I've heard of involves the reputation of…

Of course, he's out of California and you're in Canada where the admissions process is different (closer to the UK system). This is the sort of thing he's talking about:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/10/12/24103/

"African-American applicants with SAT scores of 1150 had the same chances of being accepted as white applicants with 1460s and Asian applicants with perfect 1600s"

I'm not sure if that necessarily translates into graduate studies, but I'd guess that it does.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#76

Post by jforman »

Nrsolis wrote: post #67
rubyrescue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't making a comment on the quality of the education; just the fact that it's dishonest to say that the General Studies degree is equivalent in terms of prestige, which the article implies.

That whole prestige thing is BUNK. For the record, I'm a graduate of the Harvard Extension program (undergrad) and I'm also a member of the Harvard Club of NY. If you're in your 20's and have no other accomplishments to speak of then the signaling effect of having an Ivy League degree is probably going to do something for you. But if you're in your 30s or 40s, you're going to be judged on what you've done outside of…

As a 29-year old Harvard (College) grad, I agree that "what you've done outside of an academic environment" is more important than the prestige of the degree itself. However, I've been surprised that the prestige of the degree has continued to be important throughout my career. My experience is that it doesn't go away.

And the H-bomb has a negative effect on social relationships. Not generally professional ones.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#77

Post by Nrsolis »

linhir wrote: post #52

If your resume says that you went to Columbia College (the undergraduate college of Columbia University) when you actually went to the School of General studies then you are lying, pure and simple. Now maybe you can get away with it and maybe many employers do not know the difference, but many do and the two do not look the same. College education at the elite level falls in line with the signaling model of education…

First of all, you don't know what you're talking about. Signaling is bullshit. You might as well try and turn one of those acceptance letters into a job offer. See how that works out for you.

The reason elite colleges are elite is because they are filled with people deemed "the elite." Got that?

A big part of the experience at ANY undergraduate school is WHO you happen to be learning WITH not just who you are learning FROM. Harvard made a very deliberate decision to cultivate a class composed of the BEST students from across the nation. It's easy do educate students that are ALREADY motivated, good students. BTW, Harvard also took great pains to make sure that there weren't too many Jews or Asians in the freshman class. (So I guess that signalling thing works in some unanticipated ways too.)

Just keep in mind that signals come in many forms.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#78

Post by Nrsolis »

pyth0nista wrote: post #74
rubyrescue wrote: post #46

Quoting from a friend who went to a similar school: Wow, that is total misinformation. Yes, all the Ivy League schools have General Studies programs but they are looked at as an adult/evening education program. For example, Penn's General Studies program doesn't even require standardized test scores: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/undergraduate/ba/ I'm sure a person can put on their resume that they have a Bachelor's f…

Is anyone else appalled by that sentiment? If the whole point of going to an Ivy League school is to obtain an education that supposedly exceeds all others in terms of quality (and cost), who cares how you got admitted, as long as you leave with a degree? These students, at least in the case of Columbia's School of General Studies[1], take the same courses along side regular students and graduate with the same BAs/BS…

Forget what that "other" person said.

If you have a degree, you have a degree. I get the same letters pleading for alumni donations that Eliot Spitzer gets.

It's unfortunate that there are some that cling to a model of social hierarchy that is predicated on beauty contests rather than actual objectively measurable achievement.

I'm argue that someone who earned a degree from Harvard or Yale or Columbia that did the work and earned the grades deserves no less respect than someone who did all that AND passed an admissions process. That process is the only thing that TRULY separates the non-traditional from the tradition student.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#79

Post by linhir »

Nrsolis wrote: post #77
linhir wrote: post #52

If your resume says that you went to Columbia College (the undergraduate college of Columbia University) when you actually went to the School of General studies then you are lying, pure and simple. Now maybe you can get away with it and maybe many employers do not know the difference, but many do and the two do not look the same. College education at the elite level falls in line with the signaling model of education…

First of all, you don't know what you're talking about. Signaling is bullshit. You might as well try and turn one of those acceptance letters into a job offer. See how that works out for you. The reason elite colleges are elite is because they are filled with people deemed "the elite." Got that? A big part of the experience at ANY undergraduate school is WHO you happen to be learning WITH not just who you are learnin…

I don't really see how signally is bullshit from the examples you've given. Harvard College does make a a decision to cultivate a class composed of the best students, that's sort of the entire point. Acceptance to Harvard College ends up being a signal for those things it selects for, not necessarily those things one actually learns. The gateway is admissions, not what Harvard actually imparts.

Since the admissions standards of Harvard Extension school are lower, it doesn't matter that the students can do the same work. It matters that the students weren't selected in the same way. Selection itself matters to the signal that the education is sending.

As for Harvard (etc) not selecting for Jews and Asians, very explicitly throughout the first 60 years or so (Anyone particularly interested in the topic should read Karabel's The Chosen), that's also, exactly as you point out, a signal sent if you went to Harvard in those years. That doesn't make the policy right or wrong, it just means that if you graduate from Harvard in 1930 you're likely a WASP, and, indeed, that item on you resume is signally to all sort of employers that a good Harvard WASP interviewed you and deemed that your character is fit, that saves a step when they want to hire you at their White-Shoe law firm circa 1935.

Re: How I Snuck Into The Ivy League. And You Can Too.

#80

Post by Nrsolis »

jforman wrote: post #76
Nrsolis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That whole prestige thing is BUNK. For the record, I'm a graduate of the Harvard Extension program (undergrad) and I'm also a member of the Harvard Club of NY. If you're in your 20's and have no other accomplishments to speak of then the signaling effect of having an Ivy League degree is probably going to do something for you. But if you're in your 30s or 40s, you're going to be judged on what you've done outside of…

As a 29-year old Harvard (College) grad, I agree that "what you've done outside of an academic environment" is more important than the prestige of the degree itself. However, I've been surprised that the prestige of the degree has continued to be important throughout my career. My experience is that it doesn't go away. And the H-bomb has a negative effect on social relationships. Not generally professional ones.

Tell me about it. I actually had a girl stop mid-conversation, spin on her heels, and beat a hasty retreat when I mentioned Harvard.

Maybe I should have said I went to Bunker Hill Community College.

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