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How to game the U.S. higher-education system

kuro5hin.org

11–20 of 33 posts

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#11
"Here's what I view to be the optimal path: Go to a cheap (but flagship) state school (e.g., Penn State), enroll in the Honors program (due to great high school grades), pay virtually nothing, and then (marginally) get into an incredible Master's program at a school like Princeton; "

What? Penn State for non-residents is $35-40k.

I agree with his sentiment but Penn State is not a cheap school unless you live in PA, it is another example of a marquee program that is almost as expensive than a private school. (Actually it is more expensive than some very good private schools).

Better advice is to go to the best state school in your own state, then go to the graduate program that is excellent in your field (which may or may not be Ivy).

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#12
He completely misses that graduate programs are known for their specialization.

" 3.Grad school is more important. Particularly, whether you're moving up or down: consider (a) undergrad at Penn State, grad at Harvard, vs. (b) undergrad at Harvard, grad at Penn State. Option (a) is universally considered better, and costs much less."

Not exactly. Harvard is nowhere near the top of the mechanical engineering graduate program list. I'd be better off at the University of Illinois than Harvard if that is what I am doing. More importantly, what the hell do you want to do in your major? Some schools are great at fuel cells but not robotics. Some schools are great at AI and computer vision but not other CS disciplines. That is what you need to know.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#14
post #9

From TFA: > that's why profs shy away from foreign students: they can't contribute to discussions. In a field like computer science, or indeed any engineering, I haven't known a single professor to "shy away" from foreign students. To put it bluntly, they wouldn't have much choice if they did. The author prefaces his comment with "I don't mean to be a bigot", but unfortunately, just saying that doesn't mean what you…

Most technical terms are English regardless of the language. When I was an undergrad we had a bunch of Greeks on my course, and when talking amongst themselves it sounded like malaga malaga second differential malaga malaga surface area... You could understand them perfectly.

(malaga IIRC translates as "loser", the Greeks insult each other a lot).

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#15

"Here's what I view to be the optimal path: Go to a cheap (but flagship) state school (e.g., Penn State), enroll in the Honors program (due to great high school grades), pay virtually nothing, and then (marginally) get into an incredible Master's program at a school like Princeton; " What? Penn State for non-residents is $35-40k. I agree with his sentiment but Penn State is not a cheap school unless you live in PA, i…

I figured that the example given was a generic case, for people living in PA.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#16

He completely misses that graduate programs are known for their specialization. " 3.Grad school is more important. Particularly, whether you're moving up or down: consider (a) undergrad at Penn State, grad at Harvard, vs. (b) undergrad at Harvard, grad at Penn State. Option (a) is universally considered better, and costs much less." Not exactly. Harvard is nowhere near the top of the mechanical engineering graduate p…

I think people are focusing too much on examples he gives, assuming he's recommending those specific schools to everyone, no matter what their actual interest is.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#17
I just want to note, as Brown grad (he specifically points to Brown rather randomly), that unless your parents are "rich" but won't give you any money, you will never have 100k in debt from Brown or any "elite" school. That's just not how it works. Now I'm not saying you don't leave with debt--most of my friends have 20k or so in debt. I have about 9k, but that not the radically high number that is being quoting. The only person I know who has a huge amount of debt is from a family who has the money to pay full tuition (retirement funds, home equity, savings, etc) but would not pay a dime for their child's education. Now, maybe that's their right, but that friend (and former roommate) is the only person I know who graduated with such serious debt that they'd go to San Jose state for grad school (although he ended up with the mindset that what's the difference between 100k in debt and 250k and is getting a masters in Great Britain before likely going on to to law school).

The problem is not the ultra-elite schools--Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Dartmouth, Williams, Brown, etc--with large endowments and need-based financial aid. The problem is the private schools in the middle, places that charge 50k a year but don't have generous aid programs. If your choice is between your state's university and Lehigh or GWU and you don't have money, by all means take his advice. But if you don't have money, and you can get in to Brown et al, then go. It is a deal. I grew up in an incredible working class family, and I had to pay Brown $650 a semester, my father had to pay about the same amount, and I graduated with 10k in debt...I did alright and hadn't won any fancy college scholarships.

As for his larger claim that graduate school trumps undergraduate in employers minds, I think that is true only up to a point. The rankings of graduate schools across subject are radically different, and graduate school can have a lot more to do with circumstance. My wife is working at X, so I had to go to Y, I choose to do Y part-time because I love my job, I wanted to be a lawyer in Iowa so I went to Iowa state even though I got in to Harvard (know someone who did this), etc. But, the signal of what undergraduate school you went to is pretty clear and strong in most employers mind. I'm not under the delusion that Brown taught me much, that I could not have learned anywhere else, but the school you go to sends a strong economic signal about your abilities merely due to the admissions gateway itself. Now, there are special cases where you find yourself in your 20s and all that, but to many employers, being organized and "smart" enough high school so that Brown, Yale, Williams, UChicago accept you, is a relative indication of your abilities, even if you went somewhere less prestigious for grad school.

Most importantly, though, on this second thought, is that the cases are not as clear cut as the author suggests. Signaling and employment are complicated, and they don't boil down to any simple formula like undergraduate reputation < graduate reputation or vice versa.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#18
post #5

I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out extremely well for me. Here are a few tips…

Did you have fun? Did you still have time to chase girls, take part in any clubs/intramurals, or pursue hobbies? Not that it's awful it you didn't have time - I just want to understand the trade offs required with this strategy.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#19
post #5

I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out extremely well for me. Here are a few tips…

Did you have fun? Did you still have time to chase girls, take part in any clubs/intramurals, or pursue hobbies? Not that it's awful it you didn't have time - I just want to understand the trade offs required with this strategy.

Those are all quite reasonable questions. The biggest difference was in not living the carefree life many people seem to think college should be -- but I suspect people on Hacker News don't necessarily fall into that mindset to the same extent the general population might. As part of that, I had to actually consciously decide how to spend my time. Also, I chose a major (Business Administration) that interested me but was certainly easier to accommodate the tips I gave than something like an engineering degree would have been.

I chased girls enough to find one I wanted to marry, planned a wedding, and got married before graduating. I played golf, skiied, went to concerts/movies, watched TV (usually while doing homework), played video games (TF2!), did programming/development for fun, etc.

Re: How to game the U.S. higher-education system

#20
post #5

I used a similar idea for my YC application answer to the non-computer hack question. Basically, I hacked the traditional education experience and graduated in 2.5 years, with ~$8500 of loans (without any scholarships/reduced tuition), and with lots of great work experience (I worked full time during school). Although I wouldn't advise this route for everyone, it worked out extremely well for me. Here are a few tips…

All of this raises the obvious question: what thing of lasting value did you gain from doing this?

I'm not sure if you're referring to getting a degree, or approaching it in the way that I did. I won't try too hard to convince you that a degree is important, but it introduces you to think about things in different ways than you otherwise would, lets you meet people you wouldn't otherwise meet (girls, networking opportunities, etc), provides opportunities for internships or jobs you wouldn't have otherwise, forces you to live in a place you might not have lived otherwise, etc.

Doing it in the way I did taught me a lot of incredibly valuable lessons -- probably more than I actually learned in class. I really learned time management and how to prioritize. I gained a lot of work experience, which translates into increased skills and income. Perhaps most importantly (although this will sound very cliche..), I realized that I can achieve anything I truly want, even if it seems physically impossible.

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