Man I wish OpenVMS was still a thing. All the commands worked the same due to the DCL enforcing it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGITAL_Command_Language
12 Factor CLI Apps
31–40 of 253 posts
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homebrew is NOT the primary package manager on Mac and I wish people would stop perpetuating that falsehood. Apple includes pkgutil/pkgbuild in the OS and that official package management strategy plays much better with corporate IT control of managed machines. In my experience, Homebrew always eventually results in pain and complex debugging and it's almost impossible to audit software it installs to prevent the ins…
Well, I'll admit this is the first I'm learning of this tool. That said… The top hit on Google for "os x pkgbuild" is a link into Apple's documentation that 404s. (Further Googling turns up some blog posts, and man pages, so that's good.) Does this support dependencies? How do I get updates to users? How does a user receive updates?
Wow...I'm not sure why Apple has taken down it's documentation for the command-line tools. It's been so long since I looked at anything beyond the man pages, I didn't realize the web docs weren't up. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd bet they're trying to move developers towards an XCode-centric approach. But there are plenty of other tools that can generate that format too. And it's the only format that's natively understood by the OS, so I still stand by my assertion that Homebrew is not the official package manager for Mac.
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homebrew is NOT the primary package manager on Mac and I wish people would stop perpetuating that falsehood. Apple includes pkgutil/pkgbuild in the OS and that official package management strategy plays much better with corporate IT control of managed machines. In my experience, Homebrew always eventually results in pain and complex debugging and it's almost impossible to audit software it installs to prevent the ins…
The best part is that some people think 'brew' is a solid package manager and then show up in Linux and try to make 'linuxbrew' happen (no really, it is a thing). I just wish everyone would take a day and read an intro to nix/nixpkgs and the world would really be a better place. There are so many "popular" hyped tools these days that can barely do a fraction of what is going on in the Nix ecosystem, but it doesn't se…
> hype that brew, buildkit, linuxkit, etc all seem to get
I'm not that much in devops/containers guy, bit I'm not aware about linuxkit alternative in the Linux world, care to elaborate?
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#34Don't get me wrong! I love command line apps. But I wonder if we all have a bit of an Stockholm syndrome... there are several things that suck about them... While writing this I'm thinking on my experience trying to do anything with ffmpeg or imagemagick... or even find. * For any sufficiently complicated cmd line app, the list of arguments can be huge and the --help so terse as to be become useless. For man pages, t…
For a quick args reminder, without having to dig through man pages, try tldr: https://tldr.sh/
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#35This is all great advice. The one thing this does miss is distribution, which is a HUGE part of offering a great CLI app. Specifically, I'd say: 1. Make your OFFICIAL distribution channel the primary package manager on each platform (ex: on Mac, homebrew. Ubuntu, apt/snap). Beyond that, support as many as you have capacity to. 2. Also offer an official docker image which fully encapsulates the CLI tool and all of its…
Homebrew is NOT the primary package manager on Mac and I wish people would stop perpetuating that falsehood. Apple includes pkgutil/pkgbuild in the OS and that official package management strategy plays much better with corporate IT control of managed machines. In my experience, Homebrew always eventually results in pain and complex debugging and it's almost impossible to audit software it installs to prevent the ins…
App Store is the primary package manager on Mac (which can be used from CLI). Homebrew is the defacto standard complimentary package manager on Mac. Whether you like the fact it is the defacto standard or not is irrelevant.
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I'll admit this is the first I'm learning of this tool. That said… The top hit on Google for "os x pkgbuild" is a link into Apple's documentation that 404s. (Further Googling turns up some blog posts, and man pages, so that's good.) Does this support dependencies? How do I get updates to users? How does a user receive updates?
Wow...I'm not sure why Apple has taken down it's documentation for the command-line tools. It's been so long since I looked at anything beyond the man pages, I didn't realize the web docs weren't up. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd bet they're trying to move developers towards an XCode-centric approach. But there are plenty of other tools that can generate that format too. And it's the only format that's natively und…
It might not be the official package manager, but what was claimed is that it is the primary package manager. I’d wager that Homebrew is more used than... I don’t even remember what you mentioned as the other one as I’ve never heard of it before and have never used it.
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#37These are all good points, and I wish more clis were like this. My own pet peeve is un-disablable stdout logging. > It’s important that each row of your output is a single ‘entry’ of data. It felt weird to me to use `ls` as an example as it's not immediately obvious it adheres to the advice from the printed output. I suppose they were also trying to highlight the earlier point of differing output format depending on…
I just picked `ls` as it's a common utility everyone understands and isn't some contrived example using `cat`. I am going to add a note about `ls`'s behavior with isatty. It's sort of conflating a couple of things, but I think it's interesting enough to leave it in.
I agree, it is a good example, and hey I learned something.
I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to all the feedback in this thread and wade through everyone's nitpicks. Looking forward to more articles.
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homebrew is NOT the primary package manager on Mac and I wish people would stop perpetuating that falsehood. Apple includes pkgutil/pkgbuild in the OS and that official package management strategy plays much better with corporate IT control of managed machines. In my experience, Homebrew always eventually results in pain and complex debugging and it's almost impossible to audit software it installs to prevent the ins…
The best part is that some people think 'brew' is a solid package manager and then show up in Linux and try to make 'linuxbrew' happen (no really, it is a thing). I just wish everyone would take a day and read an intro to nix/nixpkgs and the world would really be a better place. There are so many "popular" hyped tools these days that can barely do a fraction of what is going on in the Nix ecosystem, but it doesn't se…
Say what you will about Homebrew, but we need more package managers that can easily install without root. Not everyone has the time and energy to compile from source, and often it's a circular problem - I need to compile and install Python 3.7, which needs openssl, which needs to be compiled from source, which has even more dependencies... ad nauseam.
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just picked `ls` as it's a common utility everyone understands and isn't some contrived example using `cat`. I am going to add a note about `ls`'s behavior with isatty. It's sort of conflating a couple of things, but I think it's interesting enough to leave it in.
I agree, it is a good example, and hey I learned something. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to all the feedback in this thread and wade through everyone's nitpicks. Looking forward to more articles.
Thank you for the great feedback!
Re: 12 Factor CLI Apps
#40Don't get me wrong! I love command line apps. But I wonder if we all have a bit of an Stockholm syndrome... there are several things that suck about them... While writing this I'm thinking on my experience trying to do anything with ffmpeg or imagemagick... or even find. * For any sufficiently complicated cmd line app, the list of arguments can be huge and the --help so terse as to be become useless. For man pages, t…
Speaking for myself of ffmpeg and imagemagick, I don't find the CLI itself difficult, I find that their application domain is a bit complicated for a layman.
Meaning I usually struggle to comprehend what particular options mean rather than how they bind to CLI.
Maybe indeed a good intuitive UI would give more intuition about the more obscure options. But then again, a good intuitive UI is a quest of its own.