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Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

nytimes.com

211–220 of 354 posts

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#211
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? With a capable human brain, like we all have! Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right one—all people making decisions have been faced with this, including many people commonly considered evil. Computers are levers, and developers are the fulcrum. We have quite a bit of negotiation power. F…

You're still begging the question. How does one choose between doing something supports a questionably moral company (and what isn't a company without any moral baggage?) and keeping your family fed and warm? > Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right [choice] I think this is telling: you believe there is a correct choice in all situations, from all points of view. I…

Assuming your dichotomy, you should lie in wait, and at any opportunity reduce and undo the harm you're contributing to. You may well already be doing this.

If you prescribe to "the end justifies the means", you can stay fully apathetic (blocking out the guilt and shame). Worst case is you find you can't wash your hands of what you've done as you're old and dying (blockage breaks), and one could say it's too late to care then. Best case, you were worrying needlessly and the problem wasn't one (change in perspective). Bitter to me.

Maybe it isn't even a "problem" or "evil" to you, and you're reacting to your perception of "someone else's perspective on evil being forced on you" while you don't consider it as such.

On dichotomies: it's usually a lot more interesting to find a third option or to synthesize the two sides to get to a new position. So perhaps:

* "compensate for your contribution to the evil by reducing it on a larger scale, e.g. company-wide"

* "reduce expansion of evil in the company and support it's reduction"

* "transition to running your own company"

* "pay back society in some form or other once you have sufficient financial security for your family and yourself".

Maybe you have to do this for now, and it's understandable you can't consider the society above your family or yourself, but it can't truly be the final solution?

IMO, there's no cause or outcome where you are justified in working for an "evil" company, especially long-term as you'll inevitably contribute to the company's success (lest you be fired).

Do you think there's a way to consider yourself forced to contribute to evil without running up a debt?

(I mean "evil" from your own personal perspective.)

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#212

I find it surprising that educated people are "just now" doing this. What did people think corporations were doing to the world? Open up your eyes and look around and get your head out of the code and the bullshit slogans your companies have sold you. It's obvious something has gone wrong and is going on.

No wonder you're surprised; it isn't a "just now" thing. It's a clickbait title. Conscientious objectors have existed probably since time immemorial.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#213

Lately I've been experiencing some depression (under treatment), so maybe this is just the state of my mind right now, but is anyone else growing more and more cynical about the potential for changing the world, and adjusting their moral philosophy to compensate? I could barely impact how my former employer ran the company, and even though I had the company's best interests at heart the whole time, I faced resistance…

Study Buckminster Fuller. He's an engineer who had a kind of spiritual epiphany and dedicated his life to a kind of hyper-realist "Design Science Revolution".

In his lifetime he was one of the most famous (world-wide) Americans ever to have lived. He traveled around the world more than eighty times. There is a form of carbon named after him: Buckminsterfullerene.

Anyhow, he calculated that we would have the technology to save the world and fix everything by sometime in the 1970's. That happened, so now all our problems are basically psychological or spiritual.

It also so happens that a working psychology was invented/discovered in the mid 1970's and subsequently refined. It's called "Neurolinguistic Programming" (NLP) and it's basically the OS of the mind. Using NLP and off-the-shelf technology we can stop ourselves being foolish jerks and provide a high standard of living for everyone forever.

I suffered from crushing depression until my mid-20's and was totally cured, after considerable self-improvement, by a single intervention with Dr. Bandler (one of the co-founders of NLP) that lasted less than twenty minutes.

Let me repeat that in case I'm not being totally clear: A life-long depression that interfered with my ability to live a normal life (I was homeless for about four years after high school) was cured in a 20 minute session of NLP-informed hypnosis with Dr. Richard Bandler.

So, we have the psychological technology and the physical technology to solve all our problems.

It really is just a matter of getting the word out and putting our backs into it.

My specific recommendations to you are: 1. study NLP and go talk to practitioners, maybe even get some therapy; and 2. Study applied ecology (E.g. Permaculture) and start a small productive system (farm!) to begin to meet your personal needs in a economical and ecological manner.

"The plan was good, it was right, and no one had to get nailed to anything."

BTW, NLP is pretty easy to learn and it's a great career if you're at all good at it. An experienced therapist commands remuneration comparable to that of a computer programmer.

Last but not least, browse Rex Research: http://rexresearch.com/1index.htm There is a lot of weird crap in there but in between the crack-pottery you'll find mind-blowing cool technologies. The idea is to break out of your funk by confronting yourself with existing real-world solutions to all the various BS confronting us today.

My hobby is collecting powerful ideas, I can assure you the best things out there are really amazing and you haven't heard anything yet!

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#214

It's true that ultimately there aren't a whole lot of morally "good" things you can do with your compsci degree at the moment. You can work in adtech or building corporate software, ecommerce, etc. to sell plastic trinkets to people and raise your company's stock price. Or you can do ML, which will probably hurt poor people in the near to mid term and probably contribute somewhat to the more Orwellian aspects of mode…

It's exceedingly depressing and it's one of the reasons I can't stomach the Bay Area.

It doesn't take long to notice serious manifestations of societal rot. And yet some of the brightest minds of our generation spend their best years trying to get people to spend more of their cognitive surplus on mindlessly staring at their device screen.

I'm not at all saying this is tech's fault. I think the problem is much more systemic. But that doesn't make it any less troublesome.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh well let's not throw corporations under the bus entirely. Corporate organization allows people to work together to take risks and tackle problems that are too big for individuals. This has given us the modern technology upon which most of us here earn our livings and given us huge advances in health and standard of living. Have corporations done bad things? Of course, and so they are regulated, and there are proce…

Are you serious? There's a better way to work together to take risks and tackle problems that are too big for individuals, and it's called "government": the original corporation that won't sell your grandmother to a meat company for a quarter.

And if you should want to pursue something on a large scale that is not currently trending in government or social circles?

Space is maybe the clearest example of the problem with governments doing anything outside of creating a playground for innovation. 1969 was probably the greatest single government led achievement. We put a man on the moon, having only first put a man into orbit in 1962 and any object into orbit in 1958. That was when space had the government's full attention both as a possible means of weaponization and as a soft power victory of communist powers [ironically] aiming to show the resolve and capability of capitalist nations.

But that same story also shows the downsides of government dependence. Today, nearing the 50th anniversary of putting a man on the moon - we're severely struggling to try to send a man around the moon. And in fact no human would ever leave low Earth orbit after 1972. We not only stopped progressing technologically, we actually and literally technologically regressed. On top of this regression, government never has much of any motivation to cut costs or improve efficiency since they're short term public 'servants' who are just spending other peoples' money. Because of this costs became insane. After all was said and done the Space Shuttle program ended up costing more than half a billion dollars per launch.

At the risk of being tautological, corporations let people pursue what people want to pursue. Governments, by contrast, pursue what governments want to pursue. If you don't like what the government's pursuing you can try to influence votes, lobby, or 'raise social awareness' but in reality it's generally going to be about as effective as pissing into the wind. By contrast, anybody can start a company and start making whatever they want to. And indeed maybe SpaceX would be the proper epilogue here.

Enter corporations. Elon Musk wanted to send a greenhouse to Mars. The costs were unacceptable. It made no sense to him why a rocket that cost on the order of tens of millions of dollars in materials would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to contract. And indeed it didn't make any sense. So he started a company and changed it. Now costs are down by nearly an order of a magnitude, SpaceX is one of the world's largest supplier of launches, and it's looking increasingly likely that the first person to leave our orbit in nearly half a century won't be doing so on a government rocket, but on a privately built, privately funded, and privately launched rocket.

Of course SpaceX would never have been able to get to where they are without governmental contracts and assistance, so I'm not proposing anything like anarcho-capitalism, but rather that government should is the one that provides the sandbox - the people are the ones that build as they choose.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#216
post #202
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the world needs changing is it's suicidal path towards extreme climate change.

I think we need to convince people to stop studying petroleum engineering and prepare for a different economy instead. If you'd like to work with me on this, please email me.

what do you have in mind?

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#217
post #190
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an amazing story. Do you mind sharing the name of the library?

pyglobus: http://toolkit.globus.org/toolkit/docs/4.2/4.2.0/common/pygl... it was a grid computing library that made it easy to FTP large files at high performance and do automated job management.

Don't share this...

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#218
post #115
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google (and "SV") have spent 2 decades telling everyone about their open and selfless ideologies. People bought it. They went to work for Google instead of a bank... Let's inject a little honesty into this discussion. People didn't flock to google et al in droves because of google's selfless ideology. That was coincidental. People flocked to google because they wanted to get rich. Especially in the early days when…

I don't know about you. But if I can get riches at Google, I can get riches at Facebook, Apple or Microsoft too. The reason I would have chosen Google, and the reason I entrusted Google with all my personal information in the first place, was knowing they had that slogan. I just couldn't imagine they'd ever erase it... Now who is left? I guess I'm waiting for the Internet Archive to turn evil...

The Internet Archive is a non-profit which in and of itself provides it with freedom to pursue unselfish ends. As long as decent people remain at the helm, the only acceptable options for it and similar non-profits at critical times would be to downsize or close, but never to repurpose the resources they've been entrusted with toward selfish and evil ends that will bring them loads more money.

For public companies beholden to greedy, money-focused shareholders, it's a different story. I don't know that they can help to be anything BUT selfish and probably evil. "Don't be evil" can only be a secondary directive to these beasts, and one to be discarded when it gets in the way of the primary directive of making as much money as possible. For these corporations, if being "good" ever requires "making less money than legally possible", they won't be able to stay good for long.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#219

It's true that ultimately there aren't a whole lot of morally "good" things you can do with your compsci degree at the moment. You can work in adtech or building corporate software, ecommerce, etc. to sell plastic trinkets to people and raise your company's stock price. Or you can do ML, which will probably hurt poor people in the near to mid term and probably contribute somewhat to the more Orwellian aspects of mode…

There are many interesting opportunities in healthcare related to improving care quality, increasing interoperability, cutting inefficiencies, boosting EMR usability, and integrating wearable device data. Funding and jobs are available.

I would also note that a Computer Science degree isn't necessarily the best preparation for a career building commercial software.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#220

It's true that ultimately there aren't a whole lot of morally "good" things you can do with your compsci degree at the moment. You can work in adtech or building corporate software, ecommerce, etc. to sell plastic trinkets to people and raise your company's stock price. Or you can do ML, which will probably hurt poor people in the near to mid term and probably contribute somewhat to the more Orwellian aspects of mode…

You can work on blockchain projects that might have the potential to bring financial services to the unbanked and poor in 3rd world countries, but, oh wait a minute, the technology will probably just be used to create predatory financial products for payday lenders to expand their market...

The best way to make sure you are working on ethical projects is to start and run your own company. Any technology can be used for good or evil. Personally, I do think blockchain has a lot of potential, but the best way to ensure that your technology gets used for good is to design it yourself that way - in other words, build a micro-lending system that helps finance small business owners in 3rd world countries with fair interest rates, instead of building a predatory payday lending system that charges unfair interest rates.

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