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Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#171

Post by mbesto »

ryandrake wrote: post #117
mbesto wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most "techies going to work for google" or any other tech firm, are not going to get rich, in the Bill Gates or Larry Ellison sense. I can't speak for the OP, but there is absolutely a sense of getting rich working early at a tech company. The market for startup options is a direct indication of this. Google and Facebook both made, what..1000 millionaires each when they IPO'd? Point is, yes if you get in early to a…

The FB and Google scenarios were vanishing outliers. A whole lot of if statements had to evaluate to true to produce those outcomes, and at the end of the day, a FB IPO millionaire is pretty well off but his kids will still have to work for a living. The remaining 99% of early tech employees for other companies will end up with equity worth a house down payment if they are lucky, worth a few months of rent in the usu…

> The FB and Google scenarios were vanishing outliers.

Not my point.

> The remaining 99% of early tech employees for other companies will end up with equity worth a house down payment if they are lucky, worth a few months of rent in the usual case, and often worth nothing.

Agreed. People are disillusioned to believe they'll become one of the "first 1000 have become millionaires". My point is that this a motivating factor, even if incorrectly assumed by most people.

https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/

> I assume you have not been through a significant tech bear market from your comment

To be clear - wasn't there only one tech bear market that is historically significant? (2001) If so, I would greatly challenge that we will hit another one similar to that anytime soon. Is there a frothy market right now? Yes. However most tech companies today have the discounted future economics to sustain themselves in an downturn. In 2001 that was not the case - you had companies IPO'n with 0 in revenue. A macro economic downturn is absolutely right around the corner, but a "fall out the bottom" bear tech market is very far from us.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#172

Post by hinkley »

dotdi wrote: post #28

Every person, tech or not, should evaluate what their work is contributing to and they should evaluate if they can ethically and morally accept what the company is doing or standing for. In the end, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and be accountable for my actions, even if that would mean to forego money, prestige, etc.

In general I like the goals and most of the techniques of agile, but what management gets out of it that I really don’t like is the ability to keep the engineers nearly permanently off balance.

The constant tempo means the act of stopping to ask these questions has a real and highly visible cost. You essentially have to be a whistleblower to say no to things.

It is, I believe, the ugly reason why management has become so enthusiastic about sprints.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#173

Post by zeveb »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #150
jimmy1 wrote: post #133

Unpopular opinion: this is why the "dudebros" and their like keep getting hired. They are more than happy to do their work, accept their salary, and move on, and not have to turn everything into "changing the world"

Even before the "dudebros", i'd argue most scientists and engineers didn't really care too much about the moral implications of their work. Guns, bombs etc... were all invented by brilliant minds, we'd like to think we as a society have collectively evolved cause we have small machines in our hands with all the world's knowledge but esp in the usa, looking outside you see that nothing has really changed that much in…

> most scientists and engineers didn't really care too much about the moral implications of their work

Have you considered that they might care very much about the moral implications of their work — and be proud to contribute to their nation's armed might?

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#175

Post by stronglikedan »

zeveb wrote: post #173
strikelaserclaw wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before the "dudebros", i'd argue most scientists and engineers didn't really care too much about the moral implications of their work. Guns, bombs etc... were all invented by brilliant minds, we'd like to think we as a society have collectively evolved cause we have small machines in our hands with all the world's knowledge but esp in the usa, looking outside you see that nothing has really changed that much in…

> most scientists and engineers didn't really care too much about the moral implications of their work Have you considered that they might care very much about the moral implications of their work — and be proud to contribute to their nation's armed might?

> to contribute to their nation's armed might

I would extend that to the hope for peace through strength (might).

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#176

Post by bdamm »

pacala wrote: post #142
bilbo0s wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google (and "SV") have spent 2 decades telling everyone about their open and selfless ideologies. People bought it. They went to work for Google instead of a bank... Let's inject a little honesty into this discussion. People didn't flock to google et al in droves because of google's selfless ideology. That was coincidental. People flocked to google because they wanted to get rich. Especially in the early days when…

Google had a very reasonable money printing machine as its core business model: Search Ads. * You tell Google what you are looking for. * Google returns a handful of ads, alongside world-class organic search results. * Merchants bid to have their ads returned for specific search intents. None of this requires the 24/7 surveillance machine Google has ended up building.

Not true. Ad words is bigger. And to do that, they need to know as much about what you want or what you could want in order to deliver a nice juicy targeted ad.

Advertisers can now target not just classes of people, but in fact target specific people, and they'll pay a premium for that.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#177

Post by adamur »

jimmy1 wrote: post #133

Unpopular opinion: this is why the "dudebros" and their like keep getting hired. They are more than happy to do their work, accept their salary, and move on, and not have to turn everything into "changing the world"

Not wanting to change the world makes me a "dudebro"?

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#178

Post by mxuribe »

saosebastiao wrote: post #151

Lately I've been experiencing some depression (under treatment), so maybe this is just the state of my mind right now, but is anyone else growing more and more cynical about the potential for changing the world, and adjusting their moral philosophy to compensate? I could barely impact how my former employer ran the company, and even though I had the company's best interests at heart the whole time, I faced resistance…

Your comments really spoke to me. While I can't say that all the topics you noted impact me to the same degree, there are certainly similarities in how I also feel about some of them. Perhaps my following plan of what I'm doing might help you, or give you some mild inspiration/ideas...

1. Lessen overall life expenses.

Why? Not so much to be financially independent/retire early (I think they call this "FiRE")...though that would be great...It is more about giving myself even more leverage in job searches and salary negotiations. If my expenses are lower, then getting a job with a non-profit/NGO whose mission i might believe allows me to think less about likely getting a lower-than-industry-standard salary.

2. Focus on a side hustle.

Now, this could be a side business, which - if successful - further detaches you from being beholden to a corporate entity...Or, it could simply be volunteering for a local cause that you believe in, or even civic engagement more with your local community (e.g. getting involved in local town/citizen meetings), etc. The trick here is that you have to keep levels manageable. You want this side hustle specifically for the purposes to only slightly distract you from any depressive feelings you gain from your dayjob. If this side hustle grows too cumbersome, the fear is that this could of course lead you to burnout, which could lead to more triggers for feelings of depression. Use this as a distraction BUT more so for seeking areas of inspiration. (Caveat: I am NOT a mental health professional/doctor.)

3. Make a plan for where you want to see yourself in 10 years.

Normally, people put the plan first...but here I'm putting as step #3. Honestly, this step does not have to await conclusion of the above steps...you merely have to at least be well underway on both steps. This is purposeful. Sometimes people really don't know what they want to do for their rest of their lives, or at least in the next few years. By preparing you - making you financially flexible (due to having such low expenses vs. your current salary), and pumping your energy levels up (via either side hustle or volunteering/civic activity - first, it sort puts you through mental basic training. Then after you are deep into the first 2 steps, begin to formalize a plan for your life, or better yet, a plan for the next 10 years of your life.

4. Execute on the plan.

At some point - most likely - you will stumble upon something that gives you fulfillment. It might be wanting to create a non-profit startup, or maybe you will decide to be a community organizer (not as a volunteer, but as your full-time profession), or maybe you will create your own for-profit company, but you will run it in a way that you feel good about/fulfills you. Whatever it is, execute on your plan; 'nuff said.

I have no idea if the above proposal will work for you; YMMV. (I myself am not even all the way through it yet!) I also will clearly state that i am NOT a life coach nor a mental health professional, nor a doctor...I'm basically just a human being posting a comment on hacker news...So, from one stranger to another, I surely hope my comments help, and I really hope that you find what fulfills you.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#179

Post by themoonbus »

jimmy1 wrote: post #166
Sahbak wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the connection between dudebros and working to get a salary and not much more.

Dudebros was purposefully in quotes -- basically in reference to these days if you aren't a bleeding heart leftist and being actively engaged in being an ally, or other social justice cause (or at least give the facade that you are on social media) you are guilty by association, or at least placed in a less advantageous position versus your similar compatriot who is following the cultural winds. Gone are the times wh…

The previous generation you're referring to is one that actively discriminated against women and people of color in the work force... probably wasn't hard for them to keep politics out of the work place because there was more homogeneity.

Discriminating against those who hold discriminatory views is different than discriminating against people based on their ethnicity or gender. And yes, I fully understand that what is or isn't a "discriminatory viewpoint" can be subjective. My point is that it's still a false equivalency to say that discriminating against someone who thinks women are lesser than them is the same as discriminating against women.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#180

Post by djrobstep »

taneq wrote: post #67
djrobstep wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. If you do not have have what the average person in your society has, you'll struggle to participate in your society (in an absolute sense) and you'll be treated as an inferior, which does all kinds of harm (in an absolute sense). If I live aboard a ship, I am not in poverty because I do not own a car, because in my society, you do not need a car. But if I live in a city with no public transport where you need…

You seem here to be asserting that "not feeling/being inferior to the people around you" is some kind of intrinsic human right?

Rights are human concepts, they aren't intrinsic.

It's about feeling inferior, it's about being treated inferior, often violently so.

For instance, what happens when you try and retrieve groceries from a supermarket when you cannot afford to pay for them.

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