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Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

antipolygraph.org

61–70 of 112 posts

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#61
post #52
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow your logic. So if the US doesn't intervene to stop genocide in the Sudan, it is unethical for them to stop genocide anywhere else? If the US was to get involved in a war every time they thought something unethical was happening would that be good? If the US made a policy to never intervene anywhere, even if trivial intervention could improve the lives of millions, would that be good? I find that peo…

My point is not about being ethical or not ethical. It is about the ethicality being an excuse more than anything else to intervene. For example the US will never intervene in a conflict between Russia and neighboring regions, or genocides in China if they ever occur. It would be ethical to do so, but keeping good relationships with powerful countries is the prime consideration. It would also be ethical to remove the…

No, it would be unethical to do the things you mentioned. Do you honestly believe that we have a hundreds of elected officials who genuinely don't care at all about the welfare of non-Americans, who are all total monsters?

Really think about it. Is it ethical to start a war that is otherwise meritorious but that you cannot win? If you would be unable to create a good result, going to war would only add more misery to the process of getting to the inevitable bad result. This is not so 2 dimensional. You cannot say, these sets of values are parts of ethical decision making, and these other sets of values, that also impact people's lives, have no part in ethical considerations. The chances of success in a military action are a crucial component of whether it is ethical to even try it.

It is simpler to look at the results. Perhaps if the people in Iraq or Afghanistan are not better off than they would have been otherwise, and the rest of the people of the world are not safer and more prosperous than they would have been otherwise, then there was probably something unethical about the prosecution of the recent wars there.

We are just really bad at predicting the future, and even understanding the present or past. That is another ethical consideration. We should be very careful about using "ends to justify means", meaning that we do something that we know is bad for a good result of greater magnitude. The result will likely be something we did not predict, and therefore we have done a bad thing and gotten possibly a bad result as well.

The challenge would be to find a way to actually do things in the best way possible, while attaining good results. So we should avoid killing people. But if we must kill people, or even if we should kill certain very bad people (who makes those decisions?), you want to only kill the "bad" ones, therefore you should use the most discriminate weapons possible. Is it possible to do so? To achieve your aim can you use a sniper's bullet, a drone which can surveil it's target for days, or would you need to use nuclear weapons?

How would you approach North Korea, which is evil by almost any standard, when any war that lasts longer than 5 minutes results in the death of every inhabitant of Seoul?

I write all this because these are both very important and very difficult decisions. And it feels like we are not even trying. People cling to silly shallow principles and sling them around at each other, preventing the deeper discourse that should be taking place so that we can do better at dealing with horrible situations that remain in the world.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate it when people do this. What's the better comeback/reaction to this frame? (apparently, my verbalized fuck-off, tamed or not, is not the best approach)

"I'm sorry, that's not true.", then wait for them to continue the test?

Yes, and the general recommendations I've seen are:

- I'm sorry, what did you say? I didn't hear that? ...

- Oh, I thought you said that. What made you say it? ...

- You know that people reserve the worst criticism for themselves? ...

Did my original question implied polygraph tests in any way?

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#63
post #49

Maybe it is how it's written, but this person's entire career reads like a rat navigating through a maze built by superiors. Even though they say the job is among the happiest times of their life, it helps put into perspective the follower mentality some have, especially in the public sector. I'd have given the middle finger right away knowing I can find enjoyable work sans harassment. To put it crudely, I can't even…

"it helps put into perspective the follower mentality some have, especially in the public sector. I'd have given the middle finger right away knowing I can find enjoyable work sans harassment. To put it crudely, I can't even sympathize with someone so willing to grab their ankles." That's such an arrogant thing to say if you have never been in this situation. History has long shown that when things get tough most peo…

What makes it arrogant? It's a starkly different perspective...but arrogant?

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#64
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it helps put into perspective the follower mentality some have, especially in the public sector. I'd have given the middle finger right away knowing I can find enjoyable work sans harassment. To put it crudely, I can't even sympathize with someone so willing to grab their ankles." That's such an arrogant thing to say if you have never been in this situation. History has long shown that when things get tough most peo…

What makes it arrogant? It's a starkly different perspective...but arrogant?

The quote is "I'd have given the middle finger right away"

How does that person know that without having been in that situation? It's so easy to say "I'd never do that" but history is full of examples where most people just fell in line. Just look at around at most big tech companies or banks. There are a lot of people who may not be comfortable with their employer's business practices but in the end they stay because they don't want to lose that nice paycheck. I am not judging these people, they are like most of us. I am judging people who say they are different without back it up.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it arrogant? It's a starkly different perspective...but arrogant?

The quote is "I'd have given the middle finger right away" How does that person know that without having been in that situation? It's so easy to say "I'd never do that" but history is full of examples where most people just fell in line. Just look at around at most big tech companies or banks. There are a lot of people who may not be comfortable with their employer's business practices but in the end they stay becaus…

I have quit jobs for less, but I suppose nobody can have an opinion on what they'd quit over (or over and over) without being in exactly that situation. You know what's easier than saying what you'd do in a situation? Discounting what someone else might do by putting qualifiers on their ability to even say it.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway as well. FWIW I would estimate that 85% of my colleagues that discuss their poly experience view it as the same. It is an interrogation prop masquerading as science. The poly is subjective, as evident by the few times I have failed, re-tested, and passed. If I were lying the first time and did not change any answers, how can I pass the second time? The author alluded to it in her writing, but all of the tes…

Now that I think about it, it probably is useful for initial job screening. More like a psychological test to screen out those that get too riled up over stuff. Though that really has more to do with age. The first one I had took three hours. Years later, the recent one was 1 hour. The one thing the intel community does want to screen out are rash decision makers. So it’s probably excellent measure of one’s ability t…

> More like a psychological test to screen out those that get too riled up over stuff.

If that's is the case, then a nasty side-effect is to weed out the people who as a general principle refuse to put up with abuse as a basic condition of their potential job. Maybe a small deal if you're only hiring James Bond-style spies, but a big deal if you're mainly hiring analysts.

Imagine in a FLOSS project that I force all pull-request makers to read through my recursive, non-deterministic set of makefiles and fix a bug there. How many high-quality pull requests will I accept under such a system vs. simply assessing pull requests on their merit?

Of course that's not a fair comparison. I apologize to polygraph operators for it. :)

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote is "I'd have given the middle finger right away" How does that person know that without having been in that situation? It's so easy to say "I'd never do that" but history is full of examples where most people just fell in line. Just look at around at most big tech companies or banks. There are a lot of people who may not be comfortable with their employer's business practices but in the end they stay becaus…

I have quit jobs for less, but I suppose nobody can have an opinion on what they'd quit over (or over and over) without being in exactly that situation. You know what's easier than saying what you'd do in a situation? Discounting what someone else might do by putting qualifiers on their ability to even say it.

You wrote " I can't even sympathize with someone so willing to grab their ankles."

I still think your attitude is very arrogant. Maybe one day you will be in a situation where you can't just quit and find anther job easily. This may help you learn to have more empathy with others who are in a less privileged position than you are.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#68
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have quit jobs for less, but I suppose nobody can have an opinion on what they'd quit over (or over and over) without being in exactly that situation. You know what's easier than saying what you'd do in a situation? Discounting what someone else might do by putting qualifiers on their ability to even say it.

You wrote " I can't even sympathize with someone so willing to grab their ankles." I still think your attitude is very arrogant. Maybe one day you will be in a situation where you can't just quit and find anther job easily. This may help you learn to have more empathy with others who are in a less privileged position than you are.

I put it crudely by intention. I don't believe that the author is less privileged or devoid of choice here. We must call out those that encourage these practices with their continued support of them instead of twisting it in to pity when it's clearly a case of choice (as author mentions towards the latter part about working elsewhere). We're never going to increase employee confidence and mobility if we're so quick to appeal to emotion in cases where it's clearly invalid.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote " I can't even sympathize with someone so willing to grab their ankles." I still think your attitude is very arrogant. Maybe one day you will be in a situation where you can't just quit and find anther job easily. This may help you learn to have more empathy with others who are in a less privileged position than you are.

I put it crudely by intention. I don't believe that the author is less privileged or devoid of choice here. We must call out those that encourage these practices with their continued support of them instead of twisting it in to pity when it's clearly a case of choice (as author mentions towards the latter part about working elsewhere). We're never going to increase employee confidence and mobility if we're so quick t…

If you actually want to bring change then saying "I would never ever do that and I have no sympathy for people who aren't as strong as I am" is a very bad way to give confidence to people. What you did was to pat yourself on your shoulder and to declare others are losers.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#70
The total fucking insanity of people in this thread defending a polygraph because they get their checks from the person giving it to them. “Yeah they don’t work but whatever just take them and forget about how pointless and absurd it is.”

Reminds me of the attitude around school shootings.

Grow a fucking spine you cowardly weasels. Frightening to think most of you work in intelligence/defense. What a crock of shit the whole thing is.

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