How not to say the wrong thing (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#41

Post by coda_ » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 3:54 AM UTC

8_hours_ago wrote: post #22

wonton123 wrote: post #21

> The person in the center ring can say anything she wants to anyone, anywhere Except if you are a man, then you should shut up, no matter where in the ring you are. But i guess especially as a white male, you are actually never in the center of the circle, even with terminal cancer. Edit: or perhaps men think they are in the center all the time. I guess I lost the trail.

? What are you talking about? Did you read the same article I did? It was nothing about gender.

I would assume the parent was referring to the example used in the article where the husband is in the first ring out and the wife is in the middle. I don't they were suggesting anything about gender... just wondering if perhaps that first ring should be allowed to dump into the center.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#42

Post by recursive » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:48 AM UTC

exodust wrote: post #38

This reminds me of the backhanded remark "do you understand or should I draw a diagram?". If someone needs a diagram on these matters, that's sad.

Your sadness about it doesn't eliminate the need for the diagram. So it's not really an argument against the diagram.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#43

Post by exodust » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:22 AM UTC

recursive wrote: post #42

exodust wrote: post #38

This reminds me of the backhanded remark "do you understand or should I draw a diagram?". If someone needs a diagram on these matters, that's sad.

Your sadness about it doesn't eliminate the need for the diagram. So it's not really an argument against the diagram.

This diagram is nothing more than a psychologist's theoretical doodle.

The diagram is not needed. Pasting it to your fridge, as mentioned in the article, is not needed.

Obviously I'm not referring to "my sadness" when I use the expression "it's sad". It's pathetic that anyone would need to refer to such a diagram before interacting with other people on any level.

Just because a psychologist made the diagram and guidelines on sensitivity in communication, does not automatically disqualify arguments against such a diagram or guidelines. There's nothing to take away here except the reinforcement of common sense when it comes to social interaction in sensitive circumstances.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#44

Post by eksemplar » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:36 AM UTC

thx4allthestuff wrote: post #37

rdtsc wrote: post #5

> stepped into the hall with Katie's husband, Pat. "I wasn't prepared for this," she told him. "I don't know if I can handle it." Be suspicious of people who you don't know that well, but all of the sudden they pop up in a moment of crisis. Sometimes they want to be part of it and go around and brag to others how their friend / relative is suffering. It's just a source of gossip for them. Then they get the sympathy-b…

Be wary of generalized advice. Most people suck, and for them that advice is probably sound. But there are diamonds in this world, and when you pass them by they are gone.

People are so different that general advice is always bad advice.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#45

Post by mingeek » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:39 AM UTC

exodust wrote: post #38

This reminds me of the backhanded remark "do you understand or should I draw a diagram?". If someone needs a diagram on these matters, that's sad.

I don't understand why you feel like it's sad or pathetic that people would need a model to follow something you deem as common sense. I'm sure there are plenty of people smarter than you or I that think everything tech related is "common sense".

The whole point of a diagram for something like this is so that the people without 'common sense' can learn things that weren't instilled into them growing up. Is it really a pathetic situation for people to be teaching the unaware?

I get what you're saying in that it should be obvious, I think so myself! That is that anybody with my education and upbringing should understand easily. But if I look at somebody who grew up in a poor household and had the shit beaten out of them everyday by their parents and dropped out of high school, I wouldn't expect them to know the optimal way to behave socially.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#46

Post by TangoTrotFox » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:45 AM UTC

I think language coaching like this is misguided. It's just appealing to stereotypes. When I was out the last thing I wanted was more 'comfort'. I value sincerity as I think everybody does. If I just wanted stereotyped sympathy and compassion, I'd read a hallmark card.

People should say what they feel they should say. So many people seem determined to instead try to create some sort of kosher and clean model of behavior and speech that can be friendly with everybody, when in reality it more often just comes off as being insincere to everybody. And to take that a step further I think that is a major contributing factor the scourge of loneliness and weak 'real' social ties today. Two people saying what they think the other person wants to hear hardly makes for engaging conversation. The internet masks this artificiality by giving us that nice dopamine rush from seeing the points by our comments go up when we say 'the right thing', which this most certainly is not - yet it's an honest opinion, which I think is infinitely more valuable.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#47

Post by dang » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 8:14 AM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #40

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

grow up.

Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong or annoying another comment is. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting to HN.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#48

Post by InclinedPlane » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 8:28 AM UTC

If people want to get better at this sort of thing I recommend the book "The Art of Comforting" by Val Walker, it's filled with good actionable advice.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#49

Post by stonecraftwolf » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:25 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #20

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

> Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It can also be a personal failure regardless. P…

This, unfortunately, is exactly the sort of attitude I’m talking about. This comment reflects a profound ignornance of what we currently understand about how trauma works — that there are protective elements that may be in place even in terrible circumstances, that a developing nervous system does not care if society is functioning if the people responsible for a child are not, that there are circumstances that can occur anywhere that quite literally change the brain during key developmental stages — and cloaks it in a moral judgment.

It is somewhat stunning to see someone make sweeping declarative statements about a field they know nothing about on this forum in particular. I would encourage you to read the relevant research.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#50

Post by eudora » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #46

I think language coaching like this is misguided. It's just appealing to stereotypes. When I was out the last thing I wanted was more 'comfort'. I value sincerity as I think everybody does. If I just wanted stereotyped sympathy and compassion, I'd read a hallmark card. People should say what they feel they should say. So many people seem determined to instead try to create some sort of kosher and clean model of behav…

Totally agree.

When I'm having a tough time over something non-trivial, and someone looks pained and says something like "that must be hard for you" I'm just thinking that's nice but are we friends or are you my psychologist?

If someone said damn that sucks! I went through similar situation X and approach Y worked well for me, that's incredibly useful information! Sharing experiences is a huge part of friendship.

This writer seems to be suggesting that I should see someone's honesty and helpful information as a selfish insult.

Even if it's not advice, I'd much prefer the honest reaction. It's empathy. It doesn't diminish my pain.