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Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

antipolygraph.org

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Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#21

Post by phyller »

kungtotte wrote: post #12
polythrowaway wrote: post #10

I was a team leader at a USSOCOM unit and had to take a poly to be read into a couple of three-letter agency programs. In the middle of the test, the smug 23 year old fresh college grad administering the thing tells me I'm being deceptive and obviously support jihadi terrorism. This as I'm getting ready to leave on my 12th deployment. I've never wanted to so violently break someone's face as right then in that moment…

I'm picturing that scene from The Rock where Ed Harris chews out that young staffer who questions him.

If that statement was actually part of the test, that poor guy had a very dangerous job. "Might as well put the new guys in there, if they get killed we don't lose someone more valuable."

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#22

Post by adventured »

phyller wrote: post #20
ilaksh wrote: post #2

I had a contract doing a WebGL 3D space sim and graphing thing for a guy who was then going to recruit me to apply the technology for military applications. They wanted a browser-based simulator. But he told me that the application process in order to get clearance would involve a nasty investigation questioning everyone who knew me about all kinds of personal things. It seemed like a fun project that would pay decen…

> And I consider war to be unethical profiteering Do you mean all war? Or something more limited, like conflicts involving the US over the past 20 years. Or, only for the initiators of conflict. I find that line of thinking hard to justify after the most basic application to actual historical events. Like when Finland was defending itself against Russia, was Finland attempting unethical profiteering? What should they…

There are plenty of examples of ethical foreign military actions as well.

The US stopping genocide in Europe with the Kosovo war, for example, was ethical. If a people or nation can't defend itself from an aggressor (eg the UNC & South Korea vs China & North Korea), it's more than reasonable that a stronger power step in to help with that defense if it's willing to do so. The first Gulf War was also an ethical intervention of 30 nations vs Iraq, to push them back out of Kuwait.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#23

Post by ekianjo »

adventured wrote: post #22
phyller wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I consider war to be unethical profiteering Do you mean all war? Or something more limited, like conflicts involving the US over the past 20 years. Or, only for the initiators of conflict. I find that line of thinking hard to justify after the most basic application to actual historical events. Like when Finland was defending itself against Russia, was Finland attempting unethical profiteering? What should they…

There are plenty of examples of ethical foreign military actions as well. The US stopping genocide in Europe with the Kosovo war, for example, was ethical. If a people or nation can't defend itself from an aggressor (eg the UNC & South Korea vs China & North Korea), it's more than reasonable that a stronger power step in to help with that defense if it's willing to do so. The first Gulf War was also an ethical interv…

The problem is that its inconsistent. For every ethical action out there how many dozens of other wars are completely ignored by the same powers? That is what makes the ethical stance highly doubtful.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#24

Post by fphhotchips »

viraptor wrote: post #15

> That rules out entire professions: ... and Pharmacy. Pharmacy in the is requires a polygraph? I didn't expect that. It's not required in other Commonwealth countries as far as I know.

The USA is not a Commonwealth country - they formally lost that membership when they declared independence (and informally when they dumped a shipment of tea into a harbour).

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#25

Post by phyller »

ekianjo wrote: post #23
adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of examples of ethical foreign military actions as well. The US stopping genocide in Europe with the Kosovo war, for example, was ethical. If a people or nation can't defend itself from an aggressor (eg the UNC & South Korea vs China & North Korea), it's more than reasonable that a stronger power step in to help with that defense if it's willing to do so. The first Gulf War was also an ethical interv…

The problem is that its inconsistent. For every ethical action out there how many dozens of other wars are completely ignored by the same powers? That is what makes the ethical stance highly doubtful.

Not sure I follow your logic. So if the US doesn't intervene to stop genocide in the Sudan, it is unethical for them to stop genocide anywhere else?

If the US was to get involved in a war every time they thought something unethical was happening would that be good? If the US made a policy to never intervene anywhere, even if trivial intervention could improve the lives of millions, would that be good?

I find that people have strong opinions about war and are happy to share them, but often don't seem to have thought them through at all. Why should either war everywhere or war nowhere make sense? Is there any room for good judgment, to weigh ethics, ability and consequences, and have a different approach in different situations?

There is an entire field of philosophy and ethics around this that has been developed in the Western world and continues to be researched and debated, called just warfare. It is actually used, at least in the US, to inform decisions about rules of engagement and legal or illegal tools and tactics. In fact it is required learning for future officers in the US military, at least in the Air Force.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#26

Post by rapnie »

phyller wrote: post #25
ekianjo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that its inconsistent. For every ethical action out there how many dozens of other wars are completely ignored by the same powers? That is what makes the ethical stance highly doubtful.

Not sure I follow your logic. So if the US doesn't intervene to stop genocide in the Sudan, it is unethical for them to stop genocide anywhere else? If the US was to get involved in a war every time they thought something unethical was happening would that be good? If the US made a policy to never intervene anywhere, even if trivial intervention could improve the lives of millions, would that be good? I find that peo…

> There is an entire field of philosophy and ethics around this that has been developed in the Western world and continues to be researched and debated, called just warfare.

This may all be true. But my personal impression is, that most wars are waged for geo-strategical reasons, and that ethical motives serve primarily in 'manufacturing consent'. I can be entirely wrong, of course.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#27

Post by walshemj »

viraptor wrote: post #15

> That rules out entire professions: ... and Pharmacy. Pharmacy in the is requires a polygraph? I didn't expect that. It's not required in other Commonwealth countries as far as I know.

That's because mi5 and 6 in the 50' thought it was a load of hokum and had a lot of influence with the commonwealth nations.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#28

Post by polyfolly »

Throw away account. I get one every 5 years for my clearances. After having several, I view it as just another BS hoop to jump.

Obviously it does not work as a lie detector, but it’s an excellent tool for interrogation. At least that’s my conclusion.

Just answer yes and no. They’ll say you are almost done, but have an issue with one question, and want you to explain more. Don’t explain anything; just say “I don’t know“ and you are answering truthfully. Just stay relaxed, calm, and bored.

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#29

Post by everdrive »

csense wrote: post #3

If they know polygraph doesn't work, why do they still do it?

This is misunderstood. The Polygraph is not scientific, and can't reliably detect dishonesty. However, lots of people will admit to things under interrogation and bullying. What the polygraph is actually doing for the interrogators is simply to provide a formal way to read body language. And of course, to provide what is effectively a robot-bad cop. "Gee, I dunno, the test says you're lying. Are you sure there's not anything you want to tell me?"

Re: Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst

#30

Post by forapurpose »

polythrowaway wrote: post #10

I was a team leader at a USSOCOM unit and had to take a poly to be read into a couple of three-letter agency programs. In the middle of the test, the smug 23 year old fresh college grad administering the thing tells me I'm being deceptive and obviously support jihadi terrorism. This as I'm getting ready to leave on my 12th deployment. I've never wanted to so violently break someone's face as right then in that moment…

> This as I'm getting ready to leave on my 12th deployment

Unfortunately, people with far better credentials have been traitors and spies. Kim Philby, Aldrich Ames, and Robert Hanssen come to mind. IIRC, at least one was even given a pass on his polygraph test because of his credentials. Recently, Michael Flynn was a Lt General, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, and National Security Advisor (to be clear, he is convicted only of lying to the FBI, AFAIK).

EDIT: Added to Flynn's credentials

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