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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if my income is $250 million? It still evil for the government to claim a percentage of that to provide services? To make $250 million honestly, you'd have to produce value far in excess of $250 million. And yes, taxing people for producing value with their own labor is wrong to me. This is not an argument that all taxation is bad. You need taxes to run society. But taxing earned income seems wrong to me - the…

First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure. But he receives advice from countless people on those decisions, and countless more people make those decisions a reality. Companies create value through the actions of hundreds if not thousands of people. The decisions of its well paid leaders are more valuable than the actions of the av…

> First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure.

Do you know any CEOs in the mold you're describing? I know... one. He was VP running one division of a company that was flagging, actually the whole company was flagging. He systematically promoted, trained, recruited, and refocused his division, until it became 80% of the company's revenues, and 2/5ths of the rest of the company was closed off. He massively grew the company. He took over for a very smart guy who, for whatever reason, was slowly running the company into the ground. The company literally wouldn't exist without him, and not many others have that skillset. He doesn't make $250 mil, but he's worth everything he makes. The company wouldn't exist without him.

> But he receives advice from countless people on those decisions,

Who get paid for that role.

> and countless more people make those decisions a reality.

Who also get paid for that role.

> Companies create value through the actions of hundreds if not thousands of people.

...who also get paid for that role.

> The decisions of its well paid leaders are more valuable than the actions of the average worker on the factory floor, but not that much more valuable.

Executives don't get paid a massive amount out of their boss's benevolence... they get paid because it's a brutally hard, rare skillset that not many people can do. A good executive absolutely can be the difference between making billions of dollars or the company failing and going out of business.

> So no, I wouldn't produce value far in excess of $250 million. I would be getting paid way too much.

You're either underestimating how hard being a good executive is or underestimating how much value a good executive can create. How much would it be worth to Yahoo to have had better leadership? How much has Steve Jobs brought in value to Apple? How much would Yahoo be willing to pay Jobs to take over? Would he be worth it?

> Second how long did you take advantage of government services before you became a productive citizen? ... How much interest do you think you're paying on that debt?

In every other sphere, you can't sign contracts to be indebted to someone before you're mature enough to commit to them. Because the government provided a service to a 5 year old doesn't mean the government can assert any ownership over the child later. Think about if Nike gave you shoes, clothes, and food when you were younger, and then said you owed something later. It's ridiculous. People can't sign their life away before they know what they're signing.

> Income tax is not the government claiming ownership over a man's labor, it is simply the minimum payment on a debt and the fee for continuing use of services.

I agree that you should pay for the services you use. But the government isn't charging for services, they're saying that when you do productive labor, then you owe them money. Big difference. I disagree with that. The debt notion is crazy to me, you can't go in debt as a minor for something you didn't agree to it. It used to be that if someone provided services to you as a child, you'd become indebted or enslaved to them, but thankfully we got rid of that. The fact that you can't sign contracts until you're old enough to understand them is pretty clearly established in Western thought, and a good thing.

Look, I'm not against taxes. Services must be paid for, agreed. Just not out of your labor. You should never incur a tax for doing productive, honest work with your hands or mind. It's immoral to claim a share of a man's labor by force. By all means, charge for services. But you own your life and your labor.

Edit: Gotta head out, the cafe I'm at is closing (11 at night here). If you're actually interested in discussion, feel free to email me - this has been good fleshing out my thoughts more clearly on paper, and I've enjoyed the discussion. Email's in my profile.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#112
I had a distinct Randroid phase where I thought it was almost a moral obligation to avoid taxation. Now things are fuzzier for me.

I make a truly decent wage. Not an earth-shattering one but a wage that beat the hell out of anything my mom made while I was growing up. I am a very fortunate man.

Heinlein wrote a thing about freedom:

"In terms of morals there is no such thing as a ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free, because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything that I do."

In my case, I find taxation to be tolerable. It finances things like education for people with fewer advantages than I have right now. Ideally, a much bigger proportion of my taxes would go there. It also finances stupid things, like the TSA and DHS, and that's unfortunate. It financed military adventure in Iraq, which I find repugnant.

But I want to live in a society where you're not screwed based on the number you draw in the ovarian lottery. Where you can be taught useful skills to make the most of the opportunities you find. Where you don't have to pay for this privilege – until later, when you pay taxes. I'm not aware of any scalable solution to this that doesn't involve taxation of my earnings.

So I tolerate the imperfect because it's what I've got. Until there's a better way to ensure that the next generation isn't screwed by bad luck, I can't avoid that taxes are how I can do my part for the moment.

Meanwhile, Google is free to break or bend the rules, too. If they share my values on this subject, I'd hope they'd do their part in some other way. But that's up to them.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#113
post #32
post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

+1. This is similar to the major reason I despise the band U2 (besides their awful music): they bitch and moan about helping poor children in Africa. They even recently complained that the British gov't doesn't send enough money to impoverished countries. But they have a major tax haven set up that deprives the gov't of tax revenue.

You just need to be consistent. Google has gotten a lot of benefits out of their "Do No Evil" motto; in my mind, they are held to a higher standard than GE or IBM.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#114

Does Google not pay plenty in income tax on its employees, who in fact do generate that precious intellectual property? Looking only at taxed profits is misleading.

How is that at all relevant?

If I steal a couch from a furniture store, I don't get to defend myself in court by saying I bought a table from them.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#115
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

Most of their tax money would not be spent on the specific items you describe. For every $100 google spends in taxes, roughly $16 will be spent on education (mostly education for underachievers who would never work at google), $4.90 will be spent on transportation infrastructure, $0.30 will be spent on basic research and $0.1 will be spent on communications infrastructure. On the other hand, for every $100 google pay…

> "It's a fallacy to focus solely on the desirable components of government spending."

Without going into what proportion of spending might directly benefit Google, I do agree with you. Return on tax revenue is nowhere close to 1:1 nor is it being spent optimally.

But Google does not decide how that money is allotted. They can't say "I'm only paying 25% because I only approve of 25% of expenditures." When they limit their exposure to 25% of what it might be (paying 4% instead of 20%) they're still cutting the desirable spending to 25% of its budget.

So they're still strangling those things they benefit from.

And if the giants generations before Google had done the same, one wonders whether the component technologies and projects and research that Google built from would have been part of the lucky 25% of spending that survived inevitable cuts?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#116
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using tax havens is certainly not one of these cases.

You probably mean "tax haven", which is a rhetorical slight-of-hand to suggest that jurisdictions competing for attention via tax rates are somehow enticing people to sin. Competing via tax rates is just another way of enticing people to behave differently. Some people are under the impression that this happens only internationally. This is incorrect. One of the healthiest features of the American experiment is a fed…

Hey, nobody's saying that businesses that don't operate in America and consume American gov't services should pay taxes. Airbus probably doesn't pay much in American taxes, and I'm not upset about it.

But if a corporation has a significant presence here and is consuming an american-educated work force, american highway spending, american police spending, american state dept actions to ensure supply of various things (the oil industry would grind to a halt without the cloak and dagger stuff)..

then they pull an accounting hack and we're supposed to believe 98% of their operation is in the Cayman Islands? We're getting ripped off. You don't like taxes, I get it. How do you like the idea that you're paying higher taxes (or taking on more gov't debt) because other people are bilking the system?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#117
post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

Don't blame the player, blame the game.

Tax loopholes should be closed in law, Google and other corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders - why shouldn't they act within the law to save money?

I remember seeing a fun flow-chart of the IKEA tax avoidance scheme. Didn't have as amusing names as those used in this article though :)

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#118
post #94
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Google have a public image of behaving ethically. Everyone expects banks and evil multinationals to do this kind of thing. Is it ethical to avoid paying tax as an individual? Many would say no. But when a company does it, they lay their blame on the shareholders and the market. So the more outrage about this subject, the better. Our governments can either raise taxes or lower taxes. But they shouldn't let ind…

Can someone explain why companies should pay taxes at all? Their shareholders should and they do pay taxes according to their income but what's the purpose of an extra taxation to a legal entity?

When the corporate tax rate is low, people have a large incentive to create corporations to shelter their income. This already happens now quite a bit given corporate deductions and the low tax rates on dividends, but if you got rid of corporate taxes altogether, you'd just increase the amount of money that stayed within those little corporations, thus decreasing the total overall tax revenue.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems absurd by free enterprise standards and I am genuinely curious to know why refusing to do this would be called "evil." When taxes come up, it tends not to be a well-thought, cohesive, pros-and-cons thing. It tends to be an emotional/identity thing. Some people think and almost always argue it'd be a good thing if companies gave more money over to governments. Me, I think it's very good for the world on e…

It's a curious thought, but I actually think I'd prefer to be a subject of Google than Her Majesty's Government. Larry, Sergei, if you're reading - please make a bid for UK PLC. It's weighed down with debts and the current management are a shower of shite, but the headquarters are pretty swanky and I hear there are some great engineers on the payroll in Cambridge.

But we are not on the payroll of the Queen in Cambridge.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

run amazing free services (search, Gmail, Google Earth, Google Maps, Google Finance, Google News, Google Voice, Google Reader, Feedburner, many many others). Also, they're internally investing in energy and robotics like the auto-driven cars thing None of those products/services would be possible but for the government spending taxpayer money to develop the infrastructure behind those services (the internet, roads, G…

>None of those products/services would be possible but for the government spending taxpayer money... This is sloppy reasoning. Just because A contributed in some measure to B does not imply B could only have come about because of the contributions of A, nor does it imply that more of A will yield more Bs. Further, absent a parallel world in which such different choices were made, one could just as easily argue on eco…

Just because A contributed in some measure to B does not imply B could only have come about because of the contributions of A, nor does it imply that more of A will yield more Bs.

I'm not saying that at all. Google can offer the services that it does because it can ride on the back of the infrastructure developed beforehand and the taxes we pay now will enable future entrepreneurs to provide services utilizing potentially different infrastructure.

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