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The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

nytimes.com

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Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#151

Post by marbletiles »

mook wrote: post #106
gpm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist - just don't ride in reach of car doors. If that means taking the lane and blocking cars, do so. At any speed trying to figure out whether or not someone is in it in time to slow down is impossible. Even if you slow down to a crawl as you pass someone sitting in the car you are still relying on them not opening it into your side. If you are right beside the cars you have no space whatsoever to swerve, be…

As an occasional driver (I take the transit more), yes please take up the whole lane; is safer for both sides. If I find you too slow I can overtake you when safe (either in a different lane or in the opposing lane when safe). Essentially, treat you like a slow moving farm vehicle. However, please do not lane split even when it's legal to do so. I can't see out the far side of the vehicle, so you're basically somewhe…

Control your anger. In many countries bicycles get a reserved space at the front of the lights. (Some even now have bicycle-only traffic lights too).

Since that’s by far the safest place for them to be, filtering to reach it is absolutely appropriate.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#152

Post by scirocco »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

This reminds me of Spain where a colleague said it was safer driving motorycle there, than in the UK. I asked why, and he said Spanish car drivers usually anticipate motorcycles passing on the inside when turning, overtaking etc.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#153

Post by consp »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

One of the reasons is the separation of biking lanes and motor vehicles. There are also directives (not laws) for implementation of crossings, roundabouts and soft requirements for traffic/h vs lane width etc. This makes sure the implementation is mostly universal and thus easier to work with but leaves some space for special cases (e.g. in dense cities and on older roads).

> So the number of bikers in the Netherlands seem to create a better protection for bikers than the usage of helmets. And here is the kicker: If you don't demand that people use helmets when biking, the number of bikers will rise to a level, where the number of injuries will be lower than if everybody used helmet.

I think infrastructure and distances of travel are more of a incentive than helmets, though with mopeds (low speed mopeds don't require helmets) speak in your favor.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#154

Post by blattimwind »

ant512 wrote: post #93
blattimwind wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that driving education in the US is rather lacking overall, though it's of course not federalized, so there are probably fifty shades of deficiency. (That being said many driving schools here suck as well, though that's mostly a money drain for the driving students; 40 % or so failure rate in the practical exam).

I've got a British driving license and an American driving license. The British driving license was hard work. The American driving license involved little more than proving I could make the car go forwards and that I had a pulse. There's really a 40% failure rate? That's insane given how easy it is to pass the test.

I remembered it wrong, it's 36 % for the theoretical and 28 % for the practical exam.

https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Kraftfahrer/Fahrerlaubnisse/...

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#155

Post by Viker »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

But Norway is a very extreme case. By law the bikers do not carry any responsibilities, which in term is carried over completely on the drivers. That gives bikers a false sense of security while it ruins drivers lives. Norway is inherintley a terrible country for biking. There are 8 months of terrible weather, 3 of those months are pitch black night with virtually no sunlight.

The infrastructure for biking is terrible, and the rules make it even worse.

Norway is a very special case.

Edit: Helmet, hi visibility vest and reflex lights are the only requirement there is for a biker in Norway.

Also some places there are pedestrian and bike lanes, but most bikers still choose to bike on the road because it is faster ..

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#156

Post by wott »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #23
emptybits wrote: post #14

The Dutch Reach is a reach to ask for, IMO. I write this as a cyclist living in Vancouver (one city named in the article) who has been doored and nearly doored. IME, shoulder checks while actually driving seem to be a dying art form. So asking for a while-parked check like the Dutch Reach ... seems optimistic. But no harm in trying. The illustration is great. I applaud all efforts to make this technique more known. F…

A similar thing near where I live. They took out a lane, put in a turn median turn lane and a bike lane. And kept the on street parking. When it would have been much safer to just get rid of the on street parking. https://goo.gl/maps/736bR7HMats Edit: When I was in Taipei years ago they had dedicated lanes and over passes for Scooters. My thought is relatively roads for scooters and bicycles are really cheap. Another…

> They took out a lane, put in a turn median turn lane and a bike lane.

> https://goo.gl/maps/736bR7HMats

It is unrelated to the original subject, but how does this "median turn lane" work?

For me, the marking means that you can get out of that lane, but not into it in the first place... To get into that lane, you have to cross a continuous line from your side, which is not supposed to happen (in the rules I know at my place).

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#157

Post by MeteorMarc »

rocqua wrote: post #49

I'm dutch, and I've only ever heard about this on the internet, never here. Notably, I don't recall this whilst getting my driving license only 2 years ago. To check, I got my theory book. It says the following: > After the part about doing visual checks > When it is visually safe, hold the door handle with the left hand, and open the door using the right hand as far as is necessary and exit the vehicle. So it explic…

Yeah, this is taken very literally. I believe if you do a perfect parcours during your driving exam, but fail to exit the car in the prescribed way, you can register for your next exam...

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#158

Post by pieterr »

danburbridge wrote: post #133
pasta wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the law: cars are always to blame. Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe. And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet". It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsibl…

Cars aren't always to blame. It's just that it starts from the presumption that the car is at fault - which is the case in approx 90% of cases in the UK (although the UK doesn't have this strict-liability unfortunately)

Strict also doesn't mean 'always' in the Netherlands. There are exceptions.

See: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili...

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#159

Post by Vinnl »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

I'm quite sure that the primary factor for safety in the Netherlands is the excellent infrastructure. Separate bike lanes, crossings that take into account viewing angles, etc. - cyclist safety is so ingrained in road design here, and it directly affects how safe it is to cycle, even when you're a lone cyclist.

The law is probably a second large factor, and only then do I think the number of cyclists comes into play. And even then, that sheer number has only been achieved thanks to the former two factors - I'm confident that that has played a far greater role than helmets being optional.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#160

Post by tomjen3 »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Dane here: the accidents I have been involved in have all been solo accidents where I hit a rock or bike in winter and nearly slip on ice.

If I get hit by a car I doubt it will matter if there is a helmet on my head.

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