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Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

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Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#31

Linux comes with Apache, Python, C/C++, Perl, AWK, sed, vi, emacs, and more. Windows comes with Minesweeper. When I was starting out there was no Microsoft or Linux. I got a machine that had a programming lanuage built in to it, and I could write programs. Pretty much the first large program I wrote was a compiler to convert a subset of BASIC into Z80. It was written in its own subset, and could compile itself. I hac…

So what? If you want developer tools, they're a free download on microsoft.com http://www.microsoft.com/express/

Microsoft can't win here, if they shipped all that with the base OS there'd be haters hatin' on them for "bloat".

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#32
post #24
post #5

I don't think Microsoft executives are losing sleep over "Microsoft Hatred" as much as they are losing sleep over "Microsoft Irrelevance". How many college students know how to program on Win32? How many even know what Win32 is? In 10 years, these college students will be the senior developers at their respective companies. Certainly, any good engineer will choose the best tool for the job. But I find it unlikely tha…

Luckily, college students know Java, and C# is close enough to pick up.

Not really, the latest C# is closer to Scala than it is to Java...

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#33

Linux comes with Apache, Python, C/C++, Perl, AWK, sed, vi, emacs, and more. Windows comes with Minesweeper. When I was starting out there was no Microsoft or Linux. I got a machine that had a programming lanuage built in to it, and I could write programs. Pretty much the first large program I wrote was a compiler to convert a subset of BASIC into Z80. It was written in its own subset, and could compile itself. I hac…

>Linux comes with Apache, Python, C/C++, Perl, AWK, sed, vi, emacs, and more.

>Windows comes with Minesweeper.

Erm... you can download for free compilers from Microsoft or the Visual Studio Express editions. Or you could get all of those above things for Windows. You get IIS with Windows.

Why should MS bundle those into Windows and waste disk space for 99.5% of people who will never use it? BTW Ubuntu does not come with GCC. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120421

>It's always seemed to me that Microsoft almost actively prevented me from using my own machine. I couldn't get into it without buying more.

Uhh what? We are not talking about iOS here where you need to pay $99/year for the privilege of developing. Can you elaborate?

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#34

Almost every person I have ever met who hates Microsoft was either ignorant of the matters (meaning they just read what other people said and never had original thoughts) or had a specific beef in one area that they let inform their thoughts about the company as a whole. Lots of web developers, especially those who were not professional developers in the 90s see and hear this horror story of a big mean monopolist who…

> It is sad really, because Microsoft is years ahead of any other company in the way they treat developers. If you havent used Visual Studio you wont understand that.

Microsoft treat developers like cattle. You've just got to look at their corporate structure, where senior developers might be reporting to a dozen different managers. Companies that respect developers give them freedom and autonomy, they trust in their decisions, they allow them to choose their own tools and their own way of doing things. Oh sure, there are plenty of people working on exciting little development projects that never see the light of day beyond a tech demo, but geting so much as a single feature into a major product has become an ordeal.

For me, the obvious anecdote is the taboo that surrounded the iPhone at Redmond, with numerous reports saying that Microsoft staff felt the need to hide their iPhone from senior execs[1]. To me, that's the sign of a company in deep trouble.

The obvious inference to draw is that Microsoft as a company would rather remain in denial than really confront the inadequacies of their products. Any company that I'd want to work at would have responded to the iPhone by obsessively studying it rather than ignoring it. The really pernicious issue is the obvious distrust and lack of communication between the footsoldiers and their leaders. When staff feel like they aren't allowed to voice an obvious truth - that they prefer the iPhone to any WinMob device - that strikes me as a frightening place to be. It's the stuff of Orwell, the kind of madness you'd expect from a failed state.

I don't care how good Microsoft's IDEs are. I hate Microsoft, I loathe Microsoft, I despise Microsoft because they run contrary to everything I feel software should be. Microsoft seems to crush any sense of wonder and joy out of their employees, something which seems self-evident from their products. They favour micromanagement and process over autonomy and craft. They see software as just some crap that they can package up and sell, rather than something beautiful in itself, something intrinsically interesting and wonderful and beautiful.

You might say "Why should a corporation care about these things?". If you do, you miss the point entirely. Microsoft are stagnant. They're a zombie company, absolutely incapable of regeneration and growth. They are currently trading at below their post-bubble value and have failed to achieve any meaningful growth in several years. Their market cap has been exceeded by Apple; Google are well on their way to overtaking them too. You can't even make the argument that the Microsoft way is about business, because they're failing dismally at that.

Beauty and joy and excitement isn't just good for developers and users, it's good for the bottom line. Microsoft represents the rotten old way of doing things, a way that just doesn't work anymore. Good developers, developers that make stuff that really matters, they don't really care if there is free coke in the fridge, they don't care whether they sit on a Herman Miller or a shipping crate, what matters to them is creating things that matter. As far as I can tell, nobody at Microsoft has done that in a long time; Not many developers on the Microsoft platform have either. It doesn't matter how nice your offices are - if your workplace culture, if the ecosystem of your software feels stifling and ugly and just generally stupid, all the smart developers are going to leave.

Think about this - would Microsoft ever have hired a designer like Ive? Would they have ever have given him free reign? How would a developer like Buchheit be treated at Microsoft? That's why we hate Microsoft.

[1] http://www.tuaw.com/2010/03/16/microsoft-workers-hiding-thei...

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#35
I hate a lot of the tools/libraries/frameworks/software I am forced to use on a daily basis, because a lot of it is complete crap, or has some very annoying misfeature that I run into constantly and there is no way around.

I'd wager that this is part of the reason many people hate Microsoft. They are or were forced to use windows at work, programming apps for windows using Microsoft tools or languages, etc. And many of them probably found it a pain in the butt.

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#36
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web developers don't hate Microsoft because they destroyed Netscape, they hate Microsoft because their proprietary standards and er...unqiue take on w3 standards has and continues to waste a measurable percentages of people's lives and retard the progress of the web.

You might wish to consider that during roughly the same period IE4 came along to destroy Netscape, it was Netscape that was busy inventing proprietary tags - , , and the like.

Someone could have disliked Netscape back then, but dislike Microsoft now.

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#37
This claim is absurd. In the last few years Microsoft has done more to advance the state-of-the-art in programming languages for practicing developers than any other organization.

In terms of industrial languages, C# and the .NET framework are a huge advance for client-side programmers developing Windows GUI applications compared to C++. They sponsor the open source development of IronPython and IronRuby and make a genuine effort to maintain compatibility w/ the reference C implementations.

As for functional languages, they largely sponsor the development of Haskell by paying Simon Peyton-Jones who works for Microsoft Research (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/simonpj/), and have released F# which is by far the best commercially supported functional language.

Of course the trade off is that their languages work best, or only, with Windows, but if you are stuck programming on Windows, Microsoft is going out of its way to give developers a lot of options in languages.

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#38
post #22
post #8

Anti-competitive, design-by-committee, aversion towards open source, corporate culture, bureaucratic, etc. I don't hate Microsoft but I avoid targeting their platforms. EDIT: Oh, and there's the malware thing.

You have described every company.

Sure, but this one was the 800 pound gorilla. Most of those companies don't have the power to really screw us over. Microsoft did. To some extent, they still do.

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#39

Linux comes with Apache, Python, C/C++, Perl, AWK, sed, vi, emacs, and more. Windows comes with Minesweeper. When I was starting out there was no Microsoft or Linux. I got a machine that had a programming lanuage built in to it, and I could write programs. Pretty much the first large program I wrote was a compiler to convert a subset of BASIC into Z80. It was written in its own subset, and could compile itself. I hac…

>Linux comes with Apache, Python, C/C++, Perl, AWK, sed, vi, emacs, and more. >Windows comes with Minesweeper. Erm... you can download for free compilers from Microsoft or the Visual Studio Express editions. Or you could get all of those above things for Windows. You get IIS with Windows. Why should MS bundle those into Windows and waste disk space for 99.5% of people who will never use it? BTW Ubuntu does not come w…

  > Erm... you can download for free compilers from
  > Microsoft or the Visual Studio Express editions.
  > Or you could get all of those above things for
  > Windows. You get IIS with Windows.
Maybe you can now, but when I was getting into programming you couldn't. Things have changed, but consider a more recent example. I use a Windows laptop when travelling because I can no longer be bothered with the hassle of dealing with customer support who have no clue that anything other than Windows exists. If I have touble connecting to someone's hacked up, third-rate wireless internet, I'd better be using Windows or I'm screwed.

But I use Open Office. Oh, look, Microsoft now has a docx format, and half the world assumes everyone else is running the very latest version of Windows, and Word, and now I'm being sent documents I can't read.

At the time this started I checked, and I looked, and nowhere could I find any way to read or convert these files without paying for a new version of Word.

Time and time again I have these problems, and when I do, they seem to be associated with Microsoft.

I don't hate them, I just avoid them. Most of my computing pain in the past 30 years has come from them.

And in truth I don't care, and don't think about them. I have better things to do.

Re: Why do programmers hate Microsoft?

#40

Almost every person I have ever met who hates Microsoft was either ignorant of the matters (meaning they just read what other people said and never had original thoughts) or had a specific beef in one area that they let inform their thoughts about the company as a whole. Lots of web developers, especially those who were not professional developers in the 90s see and hear this horror story of a big mean monopolist who…

> It is sad really, because Microsoft is years ahead of any other company in the way they treat developers. If you havent used Visual Studio you wont understand that. Microsoft treat developers like cattle. You've just got to look at their corporate structure, where senior developers might be reporting to a dozen different managers. Companies that respect developers give them freedom and autonomy, they trust in their…

I think your long rant is misdirected. The parent poster was talking about third party developers, not Microsoft employees.
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