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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#81

Post by dbingham »

lionhearted wrote: post #45
dbingham wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if my income is $250 million? It still evil for the government to claim a percentage of that to provide services?

> What if my income is $250 million? It still evil for the government to claim a percentage of that to provide services? To make $250 million honestly, you'd have to produce value far in excess of $250 million. And yes, taxing people for producing value with their own labor is wrong to me. This is not an argument that all taxation is bad. You need taxes to run society. But taxing earned income seems wrong to me - the…

First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure. But he receives advice from countless people on those decisions, and countless more people make those decisions a reality. Companies create value through the actions of hundreds if not thousands of people. The decisions of its well paid leaders are more valuable than the actions of the average worker on the factory floor, but not that much more valuable.

No CEO could possibly make decisions more important, more weighty or more valuable than the leaders of nations. And the leaders of nations make an order of magnitude less than the average big company CEO.

So no, I wouldn't produce value far in excess of $250 million. I would be getting paid way too much.

Second how long did you take advantage of government services before you became a productive citizen? What did you get from it?

Let's assume England. Just off the top of my head - for the first 14-21 years of your life you got: health care, a primary and secondary education, protection of the military, a higher education, use of the roads, clean water, clean air, sewage, trash removal and the BBC.

How much do you think you owe the government for 14 years of the use of those services? How much interest do you think you're paying on that debt? How about for the continuing use of those services?

Income tax is not the government claiming ownership over a man's labor, it is simply the minimum payment on a debt and the fee for continuing use of services.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#82

Post by marklabedz »

spoiledtechie wrote: post #12
karl11 wrote: post #5

What this should signal, is that the US should lower its corporate tax rate. Even just making it competitive with other developed nations would probably generate more revenue for the government. And though it would still be higher than the effective rate many companies pay with all these transfer schemes, it would make the hassle less worthwhile. However, what it will actually cause lawmakers to do is increase regula…

The US Corporate Tax is one of the lowest in all the world. http://www.qbalance.com/Corporate_Tax_Rates_United_States.ht... But Bermuda still beats out us at ZERO corporate tax rate.

...And when some country is offering ZERO, any X% >0 will not encourage companies to shift their tax structures back to the US.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#83

Post by adbge »

Anechoic wrote: post #71
lionhearted wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems absurd by free enterprise standards and I am genuinely curious to know why refusing to do this would be called "evil." When taxes come up, it tends not to be a well-thought, cohesive, pros-and-cons thing. It tends to be an emotional/identity thing. Some people think and almost always argue it'd be a good thing if companies gave more money over to governments. Me, I think it's very good for the world on e…

run amazing free services (search, Gmail, Google Earth, Google Maps, Google Finance, Google News, Google Voice, Google Reader, Feedburner, many many others). Also, they're internally investing in energy and robotics like the auto-driven cars thing None of those products/services would be possible but for the government spending taxpayer money to develop the infrastructure behind those services (the internet, roads, G…

> None of those products/services would be possible but for the government spending taxpayer money to develop the infrastructure behind those services (the internet, roads, GPS, etc).

I'd argue that the infrastructure would have been built regardless.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#84

Post by jbooth »

pg wrote: post #17
dtf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Google have a public image of behaving ethically. Everyone expects banks and evil multinationals to do this kind of thing. Is it ethical to avoid paying tax as an individual? Many would say no. But when a company does it, they lay their blame on the shareholders and the market. So the more outrage about this subject, the better. Our governments can either raise taxes or lower taxes. But they shouldn't let ind…

Is it ethical to avoid paying tax as an individual? Many would say no. Do you mean avoid (by legal means) or evade (by illegal means)? Any government that uses tax incentives to affect citizens' behavior is saying it's ok to avoid taxes. If they promise your taxes will be lower if you do x rather than y, they're counting on your desire to avoid taxes to motivate you to do x.

Well, corporations are by their nature sociopathic entities that seek to maximize profit regardless of anything else. That's fine, and I don't think anyone can blame them for taking advantage of loopholes.

The question is, why do the loopholes still exist? Why aren't more people angry about them?

EDIT: Downmodded? Seriously, guys, noncontroversial statement. Go talk to an economist. Or a lawyer. Corporations are legally obligated to be sociopathic and maximize profit above all else. It's a feature, not a bug, invisible hand and all that.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#85

Post by dennisgorelik »

loumf wrote: post #53
lionhearted wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems absurd by free enterprise standards and I am genuinely curious to know why refusing to do this would be called "evil." When taxes come up, it tends not to be a well-thought, cohesive, pros-and-cons thing. It tends to be an emotional/identity thing. Some people think and almost always argue it'd be a good thing if companies gave more money over to governments. Me, I think it's very good for the world on e…

It's neither good nor evil. Google's board and executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. Shareholders can sue otherwise. If governments want more tax, they should close loopholes and Google will comply with the law.

Government should focus on trimming expenses instead of raising taxes.

Google's shareholders deserve part of Google's profit much more than US government.

Shifting money from government to shareholders increases likelihood of further innovations.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#86

Post by elai »

nhebb wrote: post #57
grellas wrote: post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

I can't speak for others, but my alarm wasn't with Google. Instead it was with a tax system that allows these kinds of loopholes. When people talk of expiring the Bush tax cuts for those making over $250k, my jaded response is that it will probably only affect those that are well to do but not really rich. I think the really rich can afford tax lawyers that let them avoid substantial taxes via other loopholes.

You're talking as if the US should receive the revenues for this foreign sourced income (notice this is out side of the USA income, not internal US income). As if google is only mountain view, CA. And as if these corporations don't contribute hugely to their headquarter country in employing tens of thousands of people who pay generously harvested income, payroll, property and other taxes and spend the majority of their money in the local economy not to mention made thousands of new local millionaires who develop their home economies even further.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#87

Post by guelo »

countersignaler wrote: post #8
scaleordie wrote: post #2

What was my tax rate again? Oh yes, somewhere around 40%... Nice to see that everyone is doing their share.

Is it not the case that all Google profits are eventually taxed again as capital gains or income taxes?

Is it not the case that as money moves around the economy from one person to another it is taxed over and over again many times? Why do some people only think of capital gains as "double taxation"?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#88

Post by elai »

pragmatic wrote: post #47

This story resonates because of the hypocrisy. http://www.google.com/intl/zh-CN/corporate/responsibility_en... "Look at how great we are" type giving: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-brin-wojcicki-fo... We hear corporate leaders (Gates, Brin, et al) lecture on social responsibility, yet they undercut the very structure of society by skirting tax laws. How will we build universities, roads, public infrastr…

I would trust google to spend its money more efficiently than any government. People tend to talk about government as the only socially responsible charity in town and the money not forcibly taken is somehow wasted in some black hole.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#90

Post by dbingham »

retube wrote: post #44
dbingham wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Google who is evil. They're just getting called out on it, because they've pledged not to be evil. It's rather expected of other corporations because we expect them to operate with out morals in search of maximum profit. But any corporation that takes advantages of tax loop holes, legal or not, is doing evil. By doing that they are taking money out of the pockets of every day citizens in every country w…

You could argue that the moral thing to do is maximise profit for shareholders (this is what they are legally required to do anyway). By deliberating paying more taxes than they need to shareholders will be penalised (smaller dividends etc).

Returning the maximum profit for shareholders is moral only for the very narrowly focused or the short sighted. Am I being moral if I return maximum profit for my shareholders by working my workers to death? Or by polluting the land so that it cannot be used after I am done with it? How about by returning value to them with one hand (the value of their shares, dividends) and removing it with the other (the increases in individual taxes required to make up for the shortfall I created by not paying)?
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