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How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

articles.latimes.com

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Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#31

Post by mcguire »

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

Telling someone who is overweight that they are fat and need to cut down on the cheesey puffs, or someone who has difficulties managing resources that they need to learn to plan, is unlikely to help them in any way. They probably already know.

It might make you feel better, I suppose...

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#33

Post by philwelch »

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

1. People don't take advice. People usually don't even take solicited advice, let alone unsolicited. So my advice is to never give it.

2. This is a discussion about emotional comforting. If someone has breast cancer, most people should follow this framework. The oncologist is not necessarily going to follow this exact framework, because his role is not merely that of the emotional comforter. If you have a role in someone's life that is more "problem solver" than "emotional comforter", this framework does not apply--but, per point #1, people don't usually take it well when people self-appoint themselves as problem solvers.

3. If someone is continually making self-destructive choices, you don't have to be their friend. It's very draining to care about a self-destructive person, and it's not going to do them or you any good to remain in that kind of relationship.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#34

Post by roenxi »

philwelch wrote: post #33
apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

1. People don't take advice. People usually don't even take solicited advice, let alone unsolicited. So my advice is to never give it. 2. This is a discussion about emotional comforting. If someone has breast cancer, most people should follow this framework. The oncologist is not necessarily going to follow this exact framework, because his role is not merely that of the emotional comforter. If you have a role in som…

Point 1 is highly debatable. I've many times been given good advice I don't want to hear, and given good advice that others don't want to hear.

The pattern I've seen in myself and others is about 24 hours of grumpiness verging on sulking, then take the feedback on board and do things differently.

If anything, I've been surprised by how receptive others are to my advice, especially considering their pushback in the 5-10 minutes where it is being given. And the same in myself.

Also point 3 is actually somewhat dangerous, particularly if you try and apply it to your family. It is a divisive mindset.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#35

Post by iamnothere »

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10
apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

Edit: I think I may have misread the tone/implications of your post, just as I think you may have misread the parent post. (I don't think that apo was implying bringing forward moral condemnation as a tactic.) I didn't see that you recommended pointing people to trauma treatment, that's a great suggestion. I'll leave the rest of the post up as a personal anecdote to support that.

There was a time in my life when I frequently made bad decisions that negatively impacted others. In retrospect, one of the things that kept me from recognizing the impact of my behavior was that nobody was willing to take me aside and have an honest, straightforward conversation about it. Not a "shaming" conversation -- that would have backfired and likely would have caused me to veer off into other destructive behavior -- but a practical, compassionate conversation explaining that people had noticed my behavior, and that it was affecting myself and others negatively.

Given my situation, I would have stopped immediately if I had been confronted in such a way. In fact, I often fantasized about a friend finally confronting me, because I knew that if other people actually recognized what I was doing then I'd have to quit immediately. I knew that the behavior was destructive. I just didn't have it in me to make a change on my own, and I wasn't willing to ask for help.

I eventually figured it out, but it was a long and lonely road.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#36

Post by skoutus »

I'm sure this is good and expedient in confronting difficult situations, but I'm not sure if it is helpful in building genuine connections. Of course, I don't have the definitive way to build genuine connections, but ... I wouldn't imagine this is the solution. Though, faced with a tough situation, I'll deploy this method for safety.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#37

Post by thx4allthestuff »

rdtsc wrote: post #5

> stepped into the hall with Katie's husband, Pat. "I wasn't prepared for this," she told him. "I don't know if I can handle it." Be suspicious of people who you don't know that well, but all of the sudden they pop up in a moment of crisis. Sometimes they want to be part of it and go around and brag to others how their friend / relative is suffering. It's just a source of gossip for them. Then they get the sympathy-b…

Be wary of generalized advice. Most people suck, and for them that advice is probably sound. But there are diamonds in this world, and when you pass them by they are gone.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#39

Post by philwelch »

roenxi wrote: post #34
philwelch wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. People don't take advice. People usually don't even take solicited advice, let alone unsolicited. So my advice is to never give it. 2. This is a discussion about emotional comforting. If someone has breast cancer, most people should follow this framework. The oncologist is not necessarily going to follow this exact framework, because his role is not merely that of the emotional comforter. If you have a role in som…

Point 1 is highly debatable. I've many times been given good advice I don't want to hear, and given good advice that others don't want to hear. The pattern I've seen in myself and others is about 24 hours of grumpiness verging on sulking, then take the feedback on board and do things differently. If anything, I've been surprised by how receptive others are to my advice, especially considering their pushback in the 5-…

The flip side of point 3, and probably the better way to go about things in most cases, is to accept the fact that other people have autonomy and just let them do whatever the hell they're gonna do in most cases. If you have family members who eat too much or smoke or gamble or drink a lot, it would be ridiculous to cut them out of your life over it. Just get over the fact that they're not running their lives in the perfect, ideal way that you would and love them anyway. But if someone is in one of the the deepest, darkest pits of fucked-upedness that you've seen in your entire life, well....

Point 1 is stated a bit too strongly, which I tried to temper a bit by jokingly contradicting it. I think a lot of interpersonal stuff is best handled with Postel's Law: be conservative with what you emit and liberal with what you accept. There is a time and a place to offer advice to people, just as there is a time and a place to offer rebuke, shame, or a punch to the face, but these are terrible default modes of interaction, and I think apo likely shares my personal flaw of defaulting to advice far too often.

By all means, especially if you're dealing with someone in a deep, dark pit of fucked-upedness and you seriously want to help guide them to salvation, give them advice. But do so very deliberately. The stereotypical example of this is an "intervention", and I'm not sure how effective that particular modality is, but the basic idea of treating it as a very serious move that must be done as carefully as possible, with plenty of forethought and love and good faith, seems like the right approach. And if they never make a good faith attempt to change things in response to that, well...at that point, it circles back to point 3, and if you follow through on point 3, you're definitely not enabling them anymore. Although even then, there's still a chance they'll break into the house and steal the TV.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#40

Post by sjg007 »

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

grow up.
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