How not to say the wrong thing (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#11

Post by watwut » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

The friend does not have trauma. Overweight does not have trauma either.

More importantly for overweight advice, it does matter whether you know and really are expert or whether you base advice on latest pop article or a random dude in gym theory.

You can comfort without being enabler. Don't give money to spender, but listen and be friend. (Or don't if it is harming you). Your impulsive friend will not magically become less impulsive just because you had lecture anyway. That is not how it works. He will need way more effort and support and will take long time to change - but only if he wants it.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#12

Post by DenisM » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

You don't have to read moral judgement into apo's comment, and if you don't one problem comes into focus: it's well good to listen support a person unconditionally in their difficulties, but some the sufferers need to change their behavior and you can't effect that through nodding and bringing in comfort food. If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to her. At what point do switch from one to another?

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#13

Post by warent » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #12

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

You don't have to read moral judgement into apo's comment, and if you don't one problem comes into focus: it's well good to listen support a person unconditionally in their difficulties, but some the sufferers need to change their behavior and you can't effect that through nodding and bringing in comfort food. If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to her. At what point do swit…

Ultimately it doesn't matter how much we want another person to change. Things will only affect change when people are ready and willing. When that happens, it will be pretty obvious, especially if you're someone they trust. At that point it does make sense to make the switch to being forthcoming and honest as you mentioned.

In the mean time? Don't enable, but don't be direct in telling them what they aren't ready to hear either. Of course, be empathetic and gentle, offer guidance and help along the way but provide no unsolicited advice. Unless you're a therapist, you should either change the topic or don't associate with them at all, or else you risk making matters worse and deepening the problem.

Disclaimer: I'm not professional in the matter, this has just been my personal approach in life that's worked well so far.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#14

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #12

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

You don't have to read moral judgement into apo's comment, and if you don't one problem comes into focus: it's well good to listen support a person unconditionally in their difficulties, but some the sufferers need to change their behavior and you can't effect that through nodding and bringing in comfort food. If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to her. At what point do swit…

If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to [hear].

Instead of telling, try teaching.

Show by example, ideally not in heated moments when people will reject the advice, a better way to handle resources or stress or confrontations or whatever.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#15

Post by neom » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #14

DenisM wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to read moral judgement into apo's comment, and if you don't one problem comes into focus: it's well good to listen support a person unconditionally in their difficulties, but some the sufferers need to change their behavior and you can't effect that through nodding and bringing in comfort food. If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to her. At what point do swit…

If you want a person to change you have to tell them something they don't want to [hear]. Instead of telling, try teaching. Show by example, ideally not in heated moments when people will reject the advice, a better way to handle resources or stress or confrontations or whatever.

Couple that with lifting people up, showing them their worth, purpose, giving them meaning. Then real change happens. I was 300lbs and no advice under the sun could have brought me to and allowed me to maintain my current healthy weight, it was only through real love did that happen.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#16

Post by asveikau » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #5

> stepped into the hall with Katie's husband, Pat. "I wasn't prepared for this," she told him. "I don't know if I can handle it." Be suspicious of people who you don't know that well, but all of the sudden they pop up in a moment of crisis. Sometimes they want to be part of it and go around and brag to others how their friend / relative is suffering. It's just a source of gossip for them. Then they get the sympathy-b…

> Be suspicious of people who you don't know that well, but all of the sudden they pop up in a moment of crisis

On the other hand I have had a few experiences where people feel closer to you than you do to them, and their concern could be genuine, or perhaps they had some similar life experience you are unaware of that makes them feel connected to your cause. By all means keep whatever distance you feel appropriate, but it's often a good idea to be kind and keep an open mind with that kind of person within reason.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#17

Post by coldtea » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

Sorry, but life is not neatly packaged and compartmentalized like that.

People will say things that can insult or hurt someone, even if that someone is sick. And nobody is going to follow some article's idea of what is proper to say if common decency is not enough for them.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#18

Post by coldtea » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #5

> stepped into the hall with Katie's husband, Pat. "I wasn't prepared for this," she told him. "I don't know if I can handle it." Be suspicious of people who you don't know that well, but all of the sudden they pop up in a moment of crisis. Sometimes they want to be part of it and go around and brag to others how their friend / relative is suffering. It's just a source of gossip for them. Then they get the sympathy-b…

>As a general rule I find that people who want to celebrate with you when something good happens and are happy for you are more likely to be a better friend than the ones who show up when you're in trouble.

Yeah, I don't think sunshine friends are better...

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#19

Post by bmmayer1 » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

> And don't worry. You'll get your turn in the center ring. You can count on that.

This line is jaw-dropping, and definitely true.

Re: How not to say the wrong thing (2013)

#20

Post by coldtea » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #10

apo wrote: post #3

People who are suffering from trauma don't need advice. They need comfort and support. Comfort in, dump out is a simple rule that makes sense in many situations. Breast cancer is given as an example in the article. I think it breaks down in many of life's situations, though. What if the trauma is self-inflicted? At what point do those outside the ring become enablers? For example, a friend of yours refuses to learn h…

Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma. It is also a feature of autism, particularly in h…

>Both of your scenarios assume that the issue is due to some fixable personal failing, and both of those assumptions are unfounded. “Lack of planning” is how you might describe “poor executive functioning” if you were to attach a moral weight to it; in reality, poor executive functioning is itself often a symptom of trauma, particularly complex or developmental trauma.

It can also be a personal failure regardless. People do have to assume some responsibility for their lives in the end. Besides near everybody has some personal tragedy or another or will inevitably have in the course of life). That doesn't mean it's fair, just that it's how it is. Even with a medical condition or actual trauma, you got to carry on, it's not like anybody else is gonna pick up the pieces for you.

We had a few dictatorships and several wars (including genocide and civil war) in the span of a century in these here parts (plus the usual personal stories that happen everywhere), and people moved on with their lives without complaining. I's a little insulting hearing people from cushy cities where nothing has happened lamenting about their "traumas" and "issues".