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An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

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Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#61

Not referring to this specific exhibit but other pieces by a similar artist. Thousands of people can create this kind of paintings for cheap. That it still sells for more than what many people can make in a decade or a career means a stratospheric concentration of wealth in society or a bubble in the commercial art world. If there is real scarcity because of climate change or other widespread disaster, how much can a…

>If there is real scarcity because of climate change or other widespread disaster, how much can a piece of this ‘quality’ be sold for? A loaf of bread, or less?

First, if it's just from climate change, it will be gradual increase in scarcity and all kinds of methods of growing food become viable as the price of bread increases. So unless climate change actually makes Banksy undesirable, it will still be worth more loaves of bread than one person could eat in a lifetime.

Second, if it's an acute wide-spread disaster, the only thing that becomes relevant is food/water/shelter /weapons/first-aid. Not only would a Banksy be worthless, but so would the world's biggest diamond as well as the cure for cancer.

So it's a meaningless comparison just based on the fact that you don't like rich people out-bidding each other over art (and subsequently supporting artists).

Once you start down the road of being dictator of spending on expensive things that aren't solving starvation, all kinds of things like space exploration, the development of the internet, etc all become "sorry effects". Guess how many villages could be fed on the budget of the Apollo program.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#62
post #18

Big art has been hijacked by big money. Art as an investment vehicle, something to preen yourself with, show others you are elite. This shows the hypocrisy. Unfortunately it will not change anything. The piece has just become more valuable, I predict. Go Banksy. Art for the masses.

In the art world, Banksy is seen largely as trite and is known to attract new and dumb money. If you've seen his film "Exit Through The Gift Shop", Mr. Brainwash, the aspiring artist he portrays, is quite similar to how anyone who knows or cares a little about art sees Banksy himself.

It isn't just "big money" saying this - ask any cool (poor) artists or curators if they like Banksy and you'll be laughed out of the room. He's the Nickelback of contemporary art. It's not because of his message - lots of other artists make biting, hilarious attacks on global capitalism and consumer culture, if that's what you're into.

Also, as others in this thread have pointed out, practices like this shredding don't actually devalue the piece, and may in fact increase it's value. The shredding is an empty gesture signifying the rejection of a culture that the piece is very much a part of. If a piece is just an investment vehicle, what effect does humiliating the owner of the piece have on the piece's function as an investment vehicle, if it does not lower the value? They (allegedly) own the art only for it's value, so how does this strike back at them?

If you want to look getting money out of art, you might start by looking at the early performance art tradition and what it achieved in terms of decommodification. Pay special attention to the amount of lying and inconsistent storytelling. Ask yourself whether "Exit Through The Gift Shop" (grossed 3MM in USA box office and set Banksy on the track to these $1mm sales) achieves any of the same decommodification.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#63
post #54
post #18

Big art has been hijacked by big money. Art as an investment vehicle, something to preen yourself with, show others you are elite. This shows the hypocrisy. Unfortunately it will not change anything. The piece has just become more valuable, I predict. Go Banksy. Art for the masses.

Big money art is not just an investment vehicle, it allows collectors to do things that would be difficult or illegal with other assets. For example: You and a few of your rich buddies buy up as much artwork as you can from a famous but not too famous dead artist. Say, 10 pieces at a million a piece. I sell my friend one of them for 1.5 million and another for 1.7. I buy his for 2 and 3 million. Repeat a few times, a…

this is pump and dump and is possible with every kind of asset.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#64

Not referring to this specific exhibit but other pieces by a similar artist. Thousands of people can create this kind of paintings for cheap. That it still sells for more than what many people can make in a decade or a career means a stratospheric concentration of wealth in society or a bubble in the commercial art world. If there is real scarcity because of climate change or other widespread disaster, how much can a…

> Not referring to this specific exhibit but other pieces by a similar artist. Thousands of people can create this kind of paintings for cheap. That it still sells for more than what many people can make in a decade or a career means a stratospheric concentration of wealth in society or a bubble in the commercial art world.

Not really. The level of wealth required to reasonably make a purchase like this is what? 20 million? That's not 'stratospheric'. It's richer than I am, to be sure. But it's only between 2 orders of magnitude richer than your average software engineer's annual salary. I think that's a pretty reasonable level of wealth inequality, and not really indicative of much at all.

> If there is real scarcity because of climate change or other widespread disaster, how much can a piece of this ‘quality’ be sold for? A loaf of bread, or less?

Your point here proves the exact opposite of what you think it does. The fact that people can invest vast resources in things that aren't immediately useful for survival is an incredible testament to the stability and productivity of our economy. Because you're right, if people thought there was any significant chance of things going mad max, they certainly wouldn't be investing in art.

> That millions of children still starve but a piece of simplistic art is worth more than the value of food a whole village consumes in a decade is a sorry effect of the financial system we use or the way our society assigns ‘coolness’ score to people and activity.

Is it? Or do prices simply reflect our personal valuations of things? Which is to say, every decision each of us makes of what to do with our individual time and money sets a price. When you wrote this comment, you chose to invest your free moments in it, rather than earning money to donate to the poor. Is that a sad commentary on the state of the world? Or is it just the natural consequence of people being allowed to allocate their own resources?

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it is, or nobody would have been buying to begin with.

The art isn't just in the artifact per se, it's in the causal history of it (and surrounding it), and the messages that can be interpreted from those histories. I wish we actually had two separate words for this - one for "art as in, I look at it and it looks moving", another for "art as in, the whole causal context of this work is interesting". Works are usually a mix of the two. Banksy's work was good in both categ…

Antiques Roadshow calls it "provenance." Some works are worth more because of who has owned them.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not trolling, the work was a performance piece. If the buyer wasn't aware of this prior to buying it then technically Banksy ruined the buyers art, or the buy can back out because he's not getting what he paid for.

But the buyer would be stupid to do so. Also, transformation to the point of self-destruction is an accepted part of art, at least since Joseph Beuys' "Fettecke".

What if the buyer just loved the piece of art prior and now hates it? I liked the before. The new “art” to me is crap. Art is subjective right? Not all art is purchased for its value. But the emotional connection one has for it. And such.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the buyer would be stupid to do so. Also, transformation to the point of self-destruction is an accepted part of art, at least since Joseph Beuys' "Fettecke".

What if the buyer just loved the piece of art prior and now hates it? I liked the before. The new “art” to me is crap. Art is subjective right? Not all art is purchased for its value. But the emotional connection one has for it. And such.

If you don't like it you can either return it and maybe get your money back, or sue, or whatever, or try selling it for much more. I am not even sure an assurance would cover this case, because it is obviously still there, and worth more, presumably.

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#68
post #63
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big money art is not just an investment vehicle, it allows collectors to do things that would be difficult or illegal with other assets. For example: You and a few of your rich buddies buy up as much artwork as you can from a famous but not too famous dead artist. Say, 10 pieces at a million a piece. I sell my friend one of them for 1.5 million and another for 1.7. I buy his for 2 and 3 million. Repeat a few times, a…

this is pump and dump and is possible with every kind of asset.

The amount of capital needed is different

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#69
Sadly what happened to a Banksy in Detroit maybe gave him the idea. An artist group 'extricated' the work from the ruins of the Packard auto plant. The new owner of the building who was planning to use the Banksy as a centerpiece for a retail center was not pleased. They promised to not sell it, then they did.

http://beltmag.com/the-fight-over-graffiti-banksy-in-detroit...

Re: An artwork by Banksy shredded itself after selling for $1.3M at Sotheby’s

#70
post #18

Big art has been hijacked by big money. Art as an investment vehicle, something to preen yourself with, show others you are elite. This shows the hypocrisy. Unfortunately it will not change anything. The piece has just become more valuable, I predict. Go Banksy. Art for the masses.

Nothing has been hijacked. Artists create art, for fun or profit. Rich people sell it to each other.
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