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An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

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Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, is it fair for me to say that your criticism of "grievance studies", a criticism of its unscientific and fallible nature, is anecdotal?

...yes? Although, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems to me that you've entirely mistaken what my complaint is; as best as I can tell you're trying to imply that my complaint is hypocritical by lacking large-scale statistics, when I'm not complaining about a lack of large-scale statistics at all, but rather such things as argument from consequences, lack of freedom of argument, etc.

But if your argument kind of hinges on the idea that these disciplines axiomatically believe in their righteousness due to their lack of scientific data, wouldn't it be quite strange to say you believe they're making scholarship more ideological, without the data to back that axiom up?

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#142
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay attention to the article! The authors of these hoax papers don't demonstrate or address a methodological flaw in gender studies. They demonstrate that you can get papers written in bad faith into a peer reviewed journal, which is also trivially true for many disciplines, including economics, which you have previously implied people would have a problem getting a "nonsense" paper into.

An empirical paper with a reasonable hypothesis that happens to be wrong is not a nonsense paper. The papers they got published in these journals were not simply empirically false. They were categorically absurd and in some cases wildly unethical. They weren't simply making empirical claims that were reasonable but happened to be false.

If you presuppose that the category is absurd, the submission of an absurd paper is a vacuous act that proves nothing, and your point should be able to be easily demonstrated by your knowledge of the field as it stands.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#143
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pay attention to what i'm saying. I'm saying that the METHODOLOGICAL FRAMEWORK of physics and math is legitimate. The replication crisis et al does NOTHING to contradict that. This paper is ASSERTING that the METHODOLOGICAL FRAMEWORK of gender studies is flawed. You may disagree with that assertion. However, citing the replication crisis, which is a DIFFERENT CATEGORY OF ISSUE, does nothing to make your point.

Pay attention to the article! The authors of these hoax papers don't demonstrate or address a methodological flaw in gender studies. They demonstrate that you can get papers written in bad faith into a peer reviewed journal, which is also trivially true for many disciplines, including economics, which you have previously implied people would have a problem getting a "nonsense" paper into.

HN limits reply depth, so i'll reply here:

> If you presuppose that the category is absurd, the submission of an absurd paper is a vacuous act that proves nothing, and your point should be able to be easily demonstrated by your knowledge of the field as it stands.

It is my opinion and the thesis of the paper, that the papers that they got accepted to these journals is absurd. I will quote here the theses description of the 7 accepted papers:

Sure, most got rejected. But 7 got accepted. And while banality is obviously a subjective value judgment, I don't think it applies to all of them. Just to enumerate the hypotheses that were accepted:

> That dog parks are rape-condoning spaces and a place of rampant canine rape culture and systemic oppression against “the oppressed dog” through which human attitudes to both problems can be measured. This provides insight into training men out of the sexual violence and bigotry to which they are prone.

> That it is only oppressive cultural norms which make society regard the building of muscle rather than fat admirable and that bodybuilding and activism on behalf of the fat could be benefited by including fat bodies displayed in non-competitive ways.

> That it is suspicious that men rarely anally self-penetrate using sex toys, and that this is probably due to fear of being thought homosexual (“homohysteria”) and bigotry against trans people (transphobia). (It combines these ideas into a novel concept “transhysteria,” which was suggested by one of the paper’s peer reviewers.) Encouraging them to engage in receptive penetrative anal eroticism will decrease transphobia and increase feminist values.

> That men frequent “breasturants” like Hooters because they are nostalgic for patriarchal dominance and enjoy being able to order attractive women around. The environment that breastaurants provide for facilitating this encourages men to identify sexual objectification and sexual conquest, along with masculine toughness and male dominance, with “authentic masculinity.” The data are clearly nonsense and conclusions drawn from it are unwarranted by it. (NB. One reviewer did raise concerns about the rigor of the data)

> That academic hoaxes or other forms of satirical or ironic critique of social justice scholarship are unethical, characterized by ignorance and rooted in a desire to preserve privilege.

> No clear thesis. A rambling poetic monologue of a bitter, divorced feminist, much of which was produced by a teenage angst poetry generator before being edited into something slightly more “realistic” which is then interspersed with self-indulgent autoethnographical reflections on female sexuality and spirituality written entirely in slightly under six hours.

> That feminism which foregrounds individual choice and responsibility and female agency and strength can be countered by a feminism which unifies in solidarity around the victimhood of the most marginalized women in society.

I'll grant you that two of them, the 'breasturants' and Mein Kampf are relatively mild on the absurdity scale. The rest, in my view, are self-evidently ridiculous and/or unethical. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#144
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad papers get published in all fields. Linking to one bad journal article shows nothing. Here, for example, is a reference to a bad paper published in a field which is not usually the target of this kind of criticism: https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/9602/rediscover... https://math.berkeley.edu/~ehallman/math1B/TaisMethod.pdf

True, but when such papers are discovered, they're usually torn down by people in the field. In this case, it was the other way around - all meaningful criticism came from the outside, and in response, researchers in the field mostly circled the wagons. Besides, the paper in question wasn't merely published - the author got a prestigious NSF award that lists that paper: https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_I…

Have you read the paper you linked to, or just the abstract and quotes in the right wing press?

You're confused about how NSF grants work. The publication is listed as an output. The grant was awarded before that paper was published. The listing of the paper on that page implies nothing about its quality.

My example paper was torn down by mathematicians, not diabetes researchers.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#145
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay attention to the article! The authors of these hoax papers don't demonstrate or address a methodological flaw in gender studies. They demonstrate that you can get papers written in bad faith into a peer reviewed journal, which is also trivially true for many disciplines, including economics, which you have previously implied people would have a problem getting a "nonsense" paper into.

HN limits reply depth, so i'll reply here: > If you presuppose that the category is absurd, the submission of an absurd paper is a vacuous act that proves nothing, and your point should be able to be easily demonstrated by your knowledge of the field as it stands. It is my opinion and the thesis of the paper, that the papers that they got accepted to these journals is absurd. I will quote here the theses description…

Considering that you're advocating for rigorous empirical standards, and considering that in the case of economics, a full THIRD of articles submitted to two top tier economics journals could not be replicated, which is quite similar to the 7/20 article admissions rate these hoaxers managed, what empirical evidence do you have that suggests this is outside the norm for a multitude of disciplines not necessarily related to your area of examination?

I'm really glad you're now saying that you just have the opinion that these papers and disciplines are absurd, because I'd consider that claim, stated as a fact, to be the realm of experts in the field. Presupposing the discipline is absurd would require you to have a deep knowledge of the field, which I'm not seeing much evidence of, here.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#146
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the papers were rejected! The ones that were accepted did tend to be banal!

Sure, most got rejected. But 7 got accepted. And while banality is obviously a subjective value judgment, I don't think it applies to all of them. Just to enumerate the hypotheses that were accepted: > That dog parks are rape-condoning spaces and a place of rampant canine rape culture and systemic oppression against “the oppressed dog” through which human attitudes to both problems can be measured. This provides insi…

The relevant measure of banality here is in comparison to what the journals normally publish. What makes e.g. Sokal's hoax important is that he exposed a journal for publishing something the editors didn't even understand. Here, the journals weren't duped into anything - they read and understood the papers, and apparently considered them worth publishing. That's what's so banal about the whole thing.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#147
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, most got rejected. But 7 got accepted. And while banality is obviously a subjective value judgment, I don't think it applies to all of them. Just to enumerate the hypotheses that were accepted: > That dog parks are rape-condoning spaces and a place of rampant canine rape culture and systemic oppression against “the oppressed dog” through which human attitudes to both problems can be measured. This provides insi…

The relevant measure of banality here is in comparison to what the journals normally publish. What makes e.g. Sokal's hoax important is that he exposed a journal for publishing something the editors didn't even understand. Here, the journals weren't duped into anything - they read and understood the papers, and apparently considered them worth publishing. That's what's so banal about the whole thing.

> The relevant measure of banality here is in comparison to what the journals normally publish.

I completely disagree. The point of this story is exactly that this stuff is line with what the journals normally publish. Their entire point is that the stuff they wrote is indistinguishable from these journal's normal fare.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#148
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN limits reply depth, so i'll reply here: > If you presuppose that the category is absurd, the submission of an absurd paper is a vacuous act that proves nothing, and your point should be able to be easily demonstrated by your knowledge of the field as it stands. It is my opinion and the thesis of the paper, that the papers that they got accepted to these journals is absurd. I will quote here the theses description…

Considering that you're advocating for rigorous empirical standards, and considering that in the case of economics, a full THIRD of articles submitted to two top tier economics journals could not be replicated, which is quite similar to the 7/20 article admissions rate these hoaxers managed, what empirical evidence do you have that suggests this is outside the norm for a multitude of disciplines not necessarily relat…

> Considering that you're advocating for rigorous empirical standards

Where did I do that?

> I'm really glad you're now saying that you just have the opinion that these papers and disciplines are absurd, because I'd consider that claim, stated as a fact, to be the realm of experts in the field. Presupposing the discipline is absurd would require you to have a deep knowledge of the field, which I'm not seeing much evidence of, here.

You seem to have missed the point of their exercise. The point of their exercise is that the entire field is intellectually bankrupt. To say that the only people who can deem the field intellectually bankrupt are its members is fairly silly. Just read the papers. They're ridiculous. You've provided no defense whatsoever of their content.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#149
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relevant measure of banality here is in comparison to what the journals normally publish. What makes e.g. Sokal's hoax important is that he exposed a journal for publishing something the editors didn't even understand. Here, the journals weren't duped into anything - they read and understood the papers, and apparently considered them worth publishing. That's what's so banal about the whole thing.

> The relevant measure of banality here is in comparison to what the journals normally publish. I completely disagree. The point of this story is exactly that this stuff is line with what the journals normally publish. Their entire point is that the stuff they wrote is indistinguishable from these journal's normal fare.

> Their entire point is that the stuff they wrote is indistinguishable from these journal's normal fare.

Journals publishing papers indistinguishable from their normal fare is the null hypothesis! If accomplishing that was the authors' goal they could have taken ten months off, surely ;)

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a reviewer with three hours to spare, fake research is indistinguishable from good research. Unless you want to give me months to review a paper, I will not be able to detect fraud. Instead I rely on the fact that the community will attempt to integrate these ideas after publication and arrive at the conclusion that the paper was garbage.

If you only have three hours, can't detect fraud, can't tell if the the paper is even real. Then what's the point of even doing the peer review? Again, peer review offered no value at all in this case.

Peer review can still inspect whether the evidence presented in a paper would—if not fabricated—truly be enough to support the paper's conclusion. Mistaken analysis of honestly collected data, improper experimental methods, flawed proofs, etc. can all show up at review time.
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