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Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

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Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#121
post #119
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an object would react to mass outside it’s light cone. That mass was not outside its light cone in the past. (This is one of the main points given in favor of inflation models: that they solve the "horizon problem" because the inflationary expansion means that mass over a region much wider than our observable universe was within our past light cone at the end of inflation.)

Ahh, ok, based on context I assumed you would understand that as an actual light second in spacetime as in actual distance traveled. Not light second as a unit of distance in 3d space at t=0.001 seconds which is a rather meaningless number at that point. It’s a meaningful difference, but still avoids the black hole problem. PS: The math really does not say anything about t=0, after ~t=10^-30 to t=1 seconds you don’t…

> I assumed you would understand that as an actual light second in spacetime as in actual distance traveled

If you are talking about actual light, it is not correct to say that it travels, say, one light-second in spacetime. The arc length along a light ray's path in spacetime is zero, because it's a null worldline. The same goes for the boundaries of light cones, which are what I think you are actually trying to get at: light cone boundaries are null surfaces, so arc length in spacetime along them is zero.

However, I don't think what you actually meant by "one light-second" was "distance in spacetime along the boundary of the past light cone". See below.

> Not light second as a unit of distance in 3d space at t=0.001 seconds which is a rather meaningless number at that point.

No, it isn't. It's a perfectly meaningful number: a distance in the surface of constant comoving time labeled by the coordinate t=0.001 seconds (or whatever time you want to pick). And if you are trying to describe "the size of the observable universe", this kind of distance is indeed what you need to specify.

Your error, however, is to assume that at t=0.001 seconds, the observable universe was 0.001 light-seconds in size. It wasn't. Such a conclusion would only be valid in flat spacetime, but the spacetime that describes the universe is not flat. It is actually non-trivial to come up with a correct expression for the size of the observable universe as a function of comoving time (and the actual expression is model-dependent--for example, it depends on how long your model says the inflation epoch lasted).

> The math really does not say anything about t=0

I agree. I wasn't saying that it did. The inflationary epoch is not modeled as starting at t=0.

> after ~t=10^-30 to t=1 seconds you don’t get black holes.

Where are you getting these numbers from?

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Incorrect. Wildly inaccurate. We have made certain observations that are assumed to be the result of matter falling into a "Black Hole". We do not have any observations that show us this as a fact. Read the observational material very carefully. Go back over the last few decades and see how many times it is declared "we have seen x for the first time", where x is the is the same entity each time, in this particlu…

You had like, a slim case before GW150914. Now you just have to either accept that black holes (in the sense of the external metric predicted by GR) do exist, or go make friends with the climate change deniers. The science discussion about the existence is settled , as evidenced by your complete lack of any concrete objection to the interpretations. (Just saying "measuring is ambiguous, maybe we didn't understand it…

You really need to read the information provided about GW150914. There is no direct observation of the event, irrespective of what LIGO might say about the matter, LIGO is an indirect methodology.

I have no doubt that something was observed, but what that was will take far more research and repeated events that can be backed up by other observational means before we have any real evidence before us.

The science is only settled for those who want certainty in their models and theories. For practical uses, one can believe that electrons exist and act in particular ways and we build "technology" based on those "beliefs". Yet, we still do not have any real handle on what these particular entities are.

I used to believe in "black holes" and other assorted entities. I had no problems with these things, until I started noticing the discrepancies. It made me take a longer look and I realised that we know far less than we think and we understand far less than we think we do.

I live country that experiences climate change, yet, what I find interesting is that if you have questions about whether or not it is anthropogenic, you are immediately classified as a denier. The same goes for many different areas in science. If you don't accept the dogma you have to be a "crank".

What science needs is a higher level of scepticism than what it currently has.

Too many of the "settled" things are not "settled" at all. We have barely scratched the surface of the universe around us and the major failing we have is this desire to be certain. There are huge amounts of experimental observations that are showing that we really have no clue and an enormous number of new models are being developed as the years go by.

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#124
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Incorrect. Wildly inaccurate. We have made certain observations that are assumed to be the result of matter falling into a "Black Hole". We do not have any observations that show us this as a fact. Read the observational material very carefully. Go back over the last few decades and see how many times it is declared "we have seen x for the first time", where x is the is the same entity each time, in this particlu…

> We have made certain observations that are assumed to be the result of matter falling into a "Black Hole". We do not have any observations that show us this as a fact. Do you believe in gravity? We've never observed it directly, always just its effects.

I believe in the observational effects of something we call gravity. As to its nature, that is still unknown. GR is one model/theory and it works most of the time. But there are observations that do not fit into this model. That is the sticking point - these observation suggest that, though GR is useful, it is seriously flawed.

Can we use it, yes. But to believe that it is true, that is something quite different.

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Incorrect. Wildly inaccurate. We have made certain observations that are assumed to be the result of matter falling into a "Black Hole". We do not have any observations that show us this as a fact. Read the observational material very carefully. Go back over the last few decades and see how many times it is declared "we have seen x for the first time", where x is the is the same entity each time, in this particlu…

If you're trying to get me to take you seriously you've failed. Do you think that condescension mingled with evidence free assertions are the way to support an argument? Is that science in your eyes?

Who am I to be taken seriously? The condescension is a part of the attitude of those who consider something "settled". You made the claim that we have observed matter falling into a "black hole". The evidence that you didn't present says we have some observations, but only supposition as to what it means.

In your eyes, that evidence may be "beyond a reasonable doubt", but from my perspective, that evidence barely scratches the surface of what we need.

Science is not about dogma, it is about investigating the universe about in a systematic way and looking at all sorts of models and theories that can provide a handle on understanding.

But none of those models or theories will ever be the "truth". They can be adequate for the purposes needed, but outside of those limited areas, other models will be required. These other models will give a better description and handle within their limits. For all the desire for a "theory of everything", it will not be achieved. There will always be anomalous observations.

Whether you agree or disagree, that is simply your choice and anything I say will be seen through your filters and biases. That is what happens to all of us.

You can believe that GR is the "bee's knees", I can believe differently. You can believe in little blue fairies living at the bottom of your garden, if you like. I put little blue fairies in the same basket as "black holes".

We have lots of very interesting observations of lots of very interesting things out there. I just have problems with the inconsistencies of the models used to describe these things.

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had like, a slim case before GW150914. Now you just have to either accept that black holes (in the sense of the external metric predicted by GR) do exist, or go make friends with the climate change deniers. The science discussion about the existence is settled , as evidenced by your complete lack of any concrete objection to the interpretations. (Just saying "measuring is ambiguous, maybe we didn't understand it…

You really need to read the information provided about GW150914. There is no direct observation of the event, irrespective of what LIGO might say about the matter, LIGO is an indirect methodology. I have no doubt that something was observed, but what that was will take far more research and repeated events that can be backed up by other observational means before we have any real evidence before us. The science is on…

Look, to do science you have to believe the world outside your head can be observed; and if you are ready to trust the rickety and convoluted stack that encodes pulses from a keyboard into photons from a screen to accurately convey information, then gravity waves have been observed and match predictions for black holes exactly.

If you want to stick to reading Gorgias of Leontini that is fine, but please don't bother the rest of us that do accept the world outside as real.

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really need to read the information provided about GW150914. There is no direct observation of the event, irrespective of what LIGO might say about the matter, LIGO is an indirect methodology. I have no doubt that something was observed, but what that was will take far more research and repeated events that can be backed up by other observational means before we have any real evidence before us. The science is on…

Look, to do science you have to believe the world outside your head can be observed; and if you are ready to trust the rickety and convoluted stack that encodes pulses from a keyboard into photons from a screen to accurately convey information, then gravity waves have been observed and match predictions for black holes exactly . If you want to stick to reading Gorgias of Leontini that is fine, but please don't bother…

You miss the point of what I am saying. Observations are being made, but is the given explanation actually meaningful? The universe is real. This does not mean that our explanations or interpretations are "truth". The problem I have with the current mindset is that it trends to treating others with a different viewpoint, model or theory as being unworthy of consideration, to be treated as pariahs, imbeciles, crackpots, heretics, to be hunted down and assassinated.

We should be accepting that our models and theories are both incomplete and wrong, irrespective of how useful they are. Every model and theory has its points of failure. That should be expected and is not a problem. Starting from that basis, we keep investigating to get better models or theories that help us gain a better insight into the universe around us. If that means giving up one model for something completely else, then what's the problem. Our universe is beautiful, complex, a place of incredible wonder that we can have an exciting time exploring and discovery.

There is a vast difference between the reality of the universe and what our models and theories are. The first is the territory, the second is only a map and maps can be notoriously faulty.

In regards to your reference to Gorgias of Leontini, I had to look that up. I chuckled. Is it possible that some of the "superstars" of science today are modern students of him?

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#129
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black holes may not form true singularities in any finite amount of time, but event horizons that are indistinguishable from the outside can be formed.

It is the event horizon that never forms. The problem that is never dealt with is that when the density of material goes up, gravity goes up, time dilation throughout all the affected material increases. From our perspective, everything throughout the affected material and region slows down - that includes any compression effects to increase the density. There is no opportunity for the effects to generate an event ho…

The event horizon might never "complete" in finite time either, but from the outside it can become increasingly indistinguishable from a complete event horizon over time as the black hole's mass compresses along the surface of the event horizon. Light escapes from the mass less and much less often over time. Black holes were originally often called "frozen stars" to emphasize how from our point of view, the mass never quite made it into the interior of the event horizon. Relevant: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/a/14239.

It seems like you're just placing restrictions on the term "black hole" that no one else is.

Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible that it's something other than gravity? A force we don't know about because of how weak it is but has an effect on a large scale? I'm completely ignorant of the subject so I don't know how crazy that might sound.

No, that is a perfectly valid question. The answer is: science has no idea what gravity _is_. What we do know is: The Newton/Einstein definition is that it is an effect by mass on space/time. Mass always travels in a straight line (unless acted on), but mass causes space/time to curve. So, what we see as gravitation attraction is a fake force. No different than being "pushed" into the back of your seat when a car acc…

> Unfortunately, the amount of energy necessary to detect an actual graviton is beyond anything we can expect to be able to produce for the forceable future and likely will never have the resources.

Sorry for the late reply. Why is that? What determines the amount of energy needed to detect a given particle?

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